For running, I’ve read 60-70mi/week is the sweet spot for non-runners.
What is the sweet-spot for weekly swimming volume for (not genetically gifted, adult-onset) non-swimmers, assuming the proper workouts and technique work?
Not the teasing out of the last 0.1% performance for elites, but realizing substantial improvements for the snails.
Thanks.
i think 60-70mpw makes you a runner.
as far as swimming, i’d say at least 12k/week. at least 3k/swim and at least 4/week to improve. more is better. at least that’s what everyone says.
IMO it is more about the quality than the volume, in both disciplines. I’ve run 60 miles/week run-focused training for open marathon and I’ve run 35 miles/week tri-focused training for open marathon and run very similar times race day. On 35-miles each workout was focused and quality - tempo, speed, long with race pace efforts. At 60 I personally couldn’t handle as much quality and still recover for the next day’s workout.
Translate to swimming I agree 4 sessions per week is ideal for improvement and I’m doing the same as you right now, trying to improve my swim. So I’m trying to get 3-4 sessions of 2-3k per session. But the biggest change is going from lots of slow distance swimming to much more shorter, harder efforts. 50s-200s at aggressive pacing. I’ve never been so fatigued swimming and I think that’s just what’s needed. Still too early to claim victory but I’m getting faster. We’ll see if it translates to faster swim splits in races.
Good luck to you.
You saved me a lot of typing! x2
i think 60-70mpw makes you a runner.
as far as swimming, i’d say at least 12k/week. at least 3k/swim and at least 4/week to improve. more is better. at least that’s what everyone says.
Hi bmeer,
Your guidance seems more the minimal amount of swimming - I’m looking more for a “practical maximum”. Am I doing enough right now, or will say 20% more (structured) yardage have a significant impact? Or can I reduce my volume without significant impact? I’m approaching my 12th week of my swim focus, seeing improvement but wondering if I should keep raising the volume (to what?) or if I can cut back without much penalty.
Thanks,
Cathy
[quote caf0 **Am I doing enough right now, **or will say 20% more (structured) yardage have a significant impact? Or can I reduce my volume without significant impact? I’m approaching my 12th week of my swim focus, seeing improvement but wondering if I should keep raising the volume (to what?) or if I can cut back without much penalty.
Thanks,
Cathy
well, what are you doing?
IMO it is more about the quality than the volume, in both disciplines. I’ve run 60 miles/week run-focused training for open marathon and I’ve run 35 miles/week tri-focused training for open marathon and run very similar times race day. On 35-miles each workout was focused and quality - tempo, speed, long with race pace efforts. At 60 I personally couldn’t handle as much quality and still recover for the next day’s workout.
Translate to swimming I agree 4 sessions per week is ideal for improvement and I’m doing the same as you right now, trying to improve my swim. So I’m trying to get 3-4 sessions of 2-3k per session. But the biggest change is going from lots of slow distance swimming to much more shorter, harder efforts. 50s-200s at aggressive pacing. I’ve never been so fatigued swimming and I think that’s just what’s needed. Still too early to claim victory but I’m getting faster. We’ll see if it translates to faster swim splits in races.
Good luck to you.
Let’s assume the quality is there, that the workouts are all either Finding Freestyle or Masters sessions (or similar - not junk). I’m not looking for the minimal amount, but something closer to a “yo, you don’t need to be swimming that much - you won’t notice much difference in your swimming if you cut back to X”. Maybe I need to keep bumping up my yardage more (keeping it quality) to hit the sweet spot. I just don’t really know what that target should be as a non-elite (slow) swimmer. Is it really just 12k of 4x/week quality? Or 20k? Or 30k? Or ?
Thanks for your insight. And good luck to you as well!
well, what are you doing?
Right now, on this swim focus, I’m swimming 6days/week 20-25km total consisting of either Masters classes or Finding Freestyle workouts (plus usually an additional OWS/week). I’ve been doing this for 10 weeks now, every 5th week though I’ve reduced to 15-17km. Maybe I can cut back on the volume, maybe I need to keep gradually increasing the volume. With running I know what the target should be. With a swim focus, no clue. Is the target 20-25km, 25-30km, …, or until insanity strikes?
3-4k 4x a week. none of it being drills or kicking.
3-4k 4x a week. none of it being drills or kicking.
And there’s your real answer.
Main sets of 2500-3200, very little drills since they are kind of worthless, very little kicking. Lots of hard swimming. Then some more.
Edited to add, read your (Caf’s) latest response and you’re already going above what most are willing to do. Just make sure you’re actually swimming hard most of the times and not just putting in junk yards.
IMHO, most poor swimmers would be better served learning to swim in groups around buoys into the sun. I see so many people stop swimming when it gets crowded, weave all over the place heading to the buoy, and flat out swim the wrong direction on the “into the sun” leg, and think to myself that they would be so much faster if they “GOT OUT OF THE DAMN POOL ONCE IN AWHILE” and trained in the conditions they race in.
Rant over. My training buddy is about 10 seconds per 100 meters faster than me in the pool, and it gets worse the longer we swim. Yet I normally come out of the water 60 to 90 seconds ahead of him in a 1500 meter OW swim. At Muncie, in a lake with no wetsuit, I was 2:45 ahead of him coming out of the water.
The difference between us is he was a high school swimmer (35 years ago) and I joined the Navy and was found to be “morally flexible” (I have always loved that movie quote) and ended up in a program that required a lot of swimming. So I can navigate in rough water, push and bounce off of people without thought, and generally do the things that pool swimmers find scary.
12-15k a week, 5 times a week in the water minimum, do this for three months and improvements will follow assuming form is not the primary issue.
12-15k a week, 5 times a week in the water minimum, do this for three months and improvements will follow assuming form is not the primary issue.
IME volume/session was much more important than sessions/week. 4k is a good standard. 2-3k not so much.
How much effort does it take to wash your hair after practice? Whether you’re speed or endurance-focused in the water for that training block, when your arms significantly complain after practice from the simple act of getting shampoo at head level, then you’re doing it right.
re: your current 20-25k
Good for you.
I don’t know what the point of diminishing returns is for non-swimmers and learning swimming. “Until insanity hits” is probably it.
Do more and harder sounds like a good answer, and it fills the machismo factor as well, but does it really work? I do two Masters sessions a week, and struggle to complete both of them, as well as one session by myself with a few drills and just slow long distance. My distance is probably somewhere around 7-9K/week.I don’t know if doing two more Masters sessions a week will make me anything but more tired. I struggle with the speed sessions, get so out of breath, I don’t even bother looking at the pace clock, I just try to get the workout done.
For running they say that only 10-15% of your mileage should be very hard workouts, why would it be different for swimming? I’m asking because my swimming sucks and I want to improve, but I’m already struggling with the load now.
Because swimming is different than running. You just need a nice, cold glass of HTFU.
I’d love to OWS but I’m concerned that the water would start to refreeze after I chopped a hole in it before I was done chopping :). Plus I live in an area where it is a considerable drive to get to open water and pools are a bunch closer.
The answer you are looking for is 20k per week. However you do it, 7x3000, 5x4000, 4x5000, doesn’t matter really. Just do that amount for awhile, of course doing all the things that swimmers do, intervals, long/short rest, some IM/kick/drills, and that will get you where a 60 mile running week would comparitively.
For running they say that only 10-15% of your mileage should be very hard workouts, why would it be different for swimming?
Because swimming is a non-weight-bearing activity, with a lower injury risk than running.
As for the original question, the answer is: it depends.