My training schedule, as a time crunched cyclist, consists of 2 or 3 workouts at sweetspot (approx 1h indoor) + 1 group ride on the weekend.
I’ve started 4 weeks ago with a 3x12 and I’ve reached 2x20 last week (range is around 90/92%).
Even if I haven’t performed a new FTP test, I can feel the good progress and the increased general fitness (even for typical “anaerobic” duration).
My original plan was to move to threshold/VO2max block after Christmas holidays but I am now considering to continue with this excellent training to possibly further increase FTP.
Any suggestions?
For truly time-crunched, the more threshold or above time you spend, the better you’ll be. (Obviously there are limits when going at true threshold.)
I’d also guess that your current threshold is probably more like a sweet spot ride for you given your improvement, so you’d have to retest FTP to really get up to threshold. But nothing wrong with doing what you’re doing if you’re happy with the improvement - it’s when the improvement stalls that you will need to change things up.
If its working, stick with it.
I personally think that sweetspot work is far more productive if you are able to do a good amount of it. I’d say if you can make 3 rides then sweetspot is where you should be at.
I’d also say if you really were a time crunched cyclist and you care about improving then why are you doing the group rides?
If the SS work is working, stick with it.
I’m in the middle of experiencing some serious fatigue from recently pushing vo2max work over my previous sweet spot work. I over cooked, big time.
The joys of sweet spot are all about recovery and my body is reminding me of this now!
Do both…
do one SS workout a week, 20290%
do on Threshold/Max, example - 5 min * 5 @ 105%, rec 2 mins Or this beast mode, 4 min @ 105%, recover 45 seconds and go again - 6 reps
do your group ride
If you want a fourth ride, then maybe another SS
Agree with this.
The thing I believe about sweetspot is it gives you a safety net. Its really hard to overdo it. Most people could get away with it day in day out without too many issues, I know I can.
When you push up to threshold you start compromising recovery in the hope of gaining more.
The other thing you have to consider is whether working at or around threshold, particularly for 20 min intervals or less. is whether you are training in the danger zone between threshold and VO2max.
I call this the danger zone because it represents an area which causes significant fatigue, due to the intensity/duration of the interval but IMHO not anything to gain from it, as you are not pushing hard enough for VO2max work.
Also, it helps to consider what you actually NEED to go fast, particularly in ironman. Do you NEED a high Vo2max, no you don’t. Do you NEED a high threshold, yes the higher the better.
Some will say VO2max work increases FTP, but I very much doubt it will be a significant increase, particularly when levied against sweetspot work.
I’m in the middle of experiencing some serious fatigue from recently pushing vo2max work over my previous sweet spot work. I over cooked, big time.
The joys of sweet spot are all about recovery and my body is reminding me of this now!
I had the same experience; now I do almost all sweet-spot intervals and only throw in rare VO2 type work. I’ll bump it up to threshold once every 1-2 weeks, but not more than that.
However, I did try Carmichael’s Time Crunched training program 2 years ago, and like it or not, you have to do a LOT of threshold riding and beyond. Even when you feel mentally too beat up to do it again. I’m pretty die-hard about training but trying to maintain that schedule was too hard for me, even with the reduced bike hours.
I have much more success with more bike hours but lower intensity stuff to build TSS, and sweet spot is just like Trainerroad describes it - a great place to work hard but not dig yourself into a hole. All my rides have a lot of sweet spot riding including my 3hr rides, and I’ve been very happy with progress.
Agree with this.
The thing I believe about sweetspot is it gives you a safety net. Its really hard to overdo it. Most people could get away with it day in day out without too many issues, I know I can.
When you push up to threshold you start compromising recovery in the hope of gaining more.
The other thing you have to consider is whether working at or around threshold, particularly for 20 min intervals or less. is whether you are training in the danger zone between threshold and VO2max.
I call this the danger zone because it represents an area which causes significant fatigue, due to the intensity/duration of the interval but IMHO not anything to gain from it, as you are not pushing hard enough for VO2max work.
Also, it helps to consider what you actually NEED to go fast, particularly in ironman. Do you NEED a high Vo2max, no you don’t. Do you NEED a high threshold, yes the higher the better.
Some will say VO2max work increases FTP, but I very much doubt it will be a significant increase, particularly when levied against sweetspot work.
This is is real helpful. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that v02 max intervals (and LA too) have kind of a time limit of 4-6 weeks before the improvements levels off. e.g. doing them next week for a june race might not be sage in places with a winter climate this time of year. Am I misunderstanding that?
The group ride may be serving some V02 duties depending on how it is structured. if you get a handful of 2-5min segments above FTP then I wouldn’t bother with additional V02 work at this point. If this isn’t that case then you should ask yourself what benefit you are getting from the group ride - do you log some good steady TSS, do you enjoy the social aspect, do you just need to get outside once a week? As long as there is some specific reason it doesn’t necessarily have to be a fitness benefit - all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Maintain 2X SS workouts per week but aim for a goal of 2X30, 3X20, or 45min straight at 90-92%. Turn the other ridee into more of an FTP session - 2X20 or 3X15 @ 100%.
Yes, the VO2 improvement definitely does taper off very quickly. It also comes very quickly too if you’re not getting injured doing it (easy on the run do get injured, hard to get injured on the bike.)
Rapid gain/rapid plateau VO2 gains are speculated to be most of the rapid improvement you see when you’re training a new runner/cyclist who’s making huge gains for a few months after the initial break-in period, even without training that hard or a lot, and why some folks with great VO2max can get really fast very quickly at short distance stuff if their musculoskeletal can handle it.
Thanks All for the valid input and suggestions.
I will stick with the plan to maintain 2 SS workouts trying to add few minutes and possibly one threshold (perhaps starting with something easy like 4x8’).
That for the next 4 weeks. At that point I should have a solid aerobic base even with a limited amount of hours (which is overall the very good thing about SS).
Don’t think I can have further benefits to add another block like that and the plan is to start with the Carmichael one for 8 weeks and taper off.
Regarding the group ride on Sunday, I like very much the social aspect and also the idea to have it as a complete unstructured day.
Overall a lot of endurance and tempo but also some time in VO2Max and beyond which I believe is good.
You can tweak that group ride to your advanatage. The endurance/tempo is fine but not significantly different from the rest of your training aside from the volume. Make a point of getting to the front for fast sections if you can pull at 110-130% FT without disrupting the flow of the ride. You can also intentionally drop back a bit too far ands force yourself to surge to get back on the wheel - that’s a tricky one if getting dropped completely would end your “group” ride but it gives you motivation to hit it hard and get back on.
That’s more or less what I do (especially in the first part, much less on the final one…).
This is from the last group ride.
ZoneDescriptionLow (watts)High (watts)Time%
Z1 Active Recovery0-159 1:07:44 34%
Z2 Endurance 159- 217 41:13 21%
Z3 Tempo 217-261 35:21 18%
Z4 Threshold 261-304 29:40 15%
Z5 VO2Max 304-348 13:36 7%
Z6 Anaerobic 348-435 07:02 4%
Z7 Neuromuscular 435-MAX 03:36 2%
I’m in the middle of experiencing some serious fatigue from recently pushing vo2max work over my previous sweet spot work. I over cooked, big time.
The joys of sweet spot are all about recovery and my body is reminding me of this now!
I had the same experience; now I do almost all sweet-spot intervals and only throw in rare VO2 type work. I’ll bump it up to threshold once every 1-2 weeks, but not more than that.
However, I did try Carmichael’s Time Crunched training program 2 years ago, and like it or not, you have to do a LOT of threshold riding and beyond. Even when you feel mentally too beat up to do it again. I’m pretty die-hard about training but trying to maintain that schedule was too hard for me, even with the reduced bike hours.
I have much more success with more bike hours but lower intensity stuff to build TSS, and sweet spot is just like Trainerroad describes it - a great place to work hard but not dig yourself into a hole. All my rides have a lot of sweet spot riding including my 3hr rides, and I’ve been very happy with progress.
same with me…I hav been doing 2x20s and 3x20s mostly at VO2Max for 4-5x a week since the week before December 1st. I’m seriously fatigued and will be moving more to a SS effort workout…The first few weeks, I felt great, but this past week, I have seriously lacked strength and endurance and can only attribute it to a tired body.
same with me…I hav been doing 2x20s and 3x20s mostly at VO2Max for 4-5x a week since the week before December 1st. I’m seriously fatigued and will be moving more to a SS effort workout…The first few weeks, I felt great, but this past week, I have seriously lacked strength and endurance and can only attribute it to a tired body.
Is that a typo or am I confused? If you’re doing 2x20 (especially 3x20) at a certain power level that isn’t your vo2max (120-130% FTP) by definition. Most vo2max intervals are 3-5 mins long, no?
same with me…I hav been doing 2x20s and 3x20s mostly at VO2Max for 4-5x a week since the week before December 1st. I’m seriously fatigued and will be moving more to a SS effort workout…The first few weeks, I felt great, but this past week, I have seriously lacked strength and endurance and can only attribute it to a tired body.
Is that a typo or am I confused? If you’re doing 2x20 (especially 3x20) at a certain power level that isn’t your vo2max (120-130% FTP) by definition. Most vo2max intervals are 3-5 mins long, no?
Oops, yeah, typo…been doing efforts in the 105+% above current FTP, which is threshold?. For a recent workout, TrainerRoad had me at 11% SS, 26.5% threshold, and 37% VO2Max. Effort was HARD. I’m guessing other workouts have been pretty close to this level of effort.
fwiw, I am pretty sure my FTP is off right now, though, since I made an adjustment to wheel size and have yet to successfully complete another FTP test. I tried to do one this past Sunday and just blew up…body was just tired.
Oops, yeah, typo…been doing efforts in the 105+% above current FTP, which is threshold?.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels
If you’re doing 3x20 at 105%+ I’d say your FTP is higher than it’s currently set at.
True. 3X20 @ 105% should be basically impossible if your FTP is set properly. Unless you are taking 20min recoveries 
Oops, yeah, typo…been doing efforts in the 105+% above current FTP, which is threshold?.
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/...ower-training-levels
If you’re doing 3x20 at 105%+ I’d say your FTP is higher than it’s currently set at.