I was judging a summer swim meet last night, and I dq’d several swimmer’s based upon starting their backstroke flip-turn too early - although they flipped and pulled with the trailing arm correctly, they kicked free style into the wall to make up the difference. Upon seeing the free style kick, because at this point they were on the stomach and past the vertical part of breast, I made my ruling. Did I not call this correctly?
While I think the usa swimming message boards require you to be a member, the us masters swimming ones don’t and if you ask nicely I bet you’ll get replies from regional directors of officiating who are quite knowledgeable on it.
I was judging a summer swim meet last night, and I dq’d several swimmer’s based upon starting their backstroke flip-turn too early - although they flipped and pulled with the trailing arm correctly, they kicked free style into the wall to make up the difference. Upon seeing the free style kick, because at this point they were on the stomach and past the vertical part of breast, I made my ruling. Did I not call this correctly?
I prefer judges who know the rules BEFORE officiating as opposed to those who ask others what the rule is afterwards.
No. When in doubt you don’t DQ. You had doubt and DQd anyhow.
Your understanding of the rule is correct however.
USA Swimming has the rules (of course) on their website but they also have rule interpretations and examples covering various scenarios too. These are a great read since many of them deal with the real world little kid type of stuff you will see in every summer league meet.
I only worked lower level meets but I truly believe it is way harder to officiate a summer league meet than the Olympics. Olympians don’t screw up that much and their parents are far away behind big barriers 
As far as I understand the rules, yes, you made the correct call.
There is no rule against continuing to kick once you’ve turned onto your stomach, but the roll and turn must be a continuous motion.
I.e. You roll, do a single/double arm pull as part of the roll, and immediately turn and push off (onto your back).
USA Swimming Rule book 10.1.4.3
Turns — Upon completion of each length, some part of the swimmer must touch the wall.
During the turn the shoulders may be turned past the vertical toward the breast after which
an immediate continuous single arm pull or immediate continuous simultaneous double arm
pull may be used to initiate the turn. The swimmer must have returned to a position on the
back upon leaving the wall.
what aj said.
if you are going to keep judging at the summer swim meets, brush up on all the technical rules. legal vs illegal starts, turns, finishes, and strokes. particularly as kids get older, stuff happens faster and less blatantly.
Olympians don’t screw up that much and their parents are far away behind big barriers
No, when they break the rules it is usually deliberate, e.g. dolphin kick on the breaststroke pullout…
Upon seeing the free style kick, because at this point they were on the stomach and past the vertical part of breast, I made my ruling.
Just because you see a freestyle type kick does not mean it is an automatic DQ. Them being on stomach and past vertical and kicking is not a DQ. If the kicking occurs during the single continuous action of the single (or double) arm pull it is legit.
Them finishing the single (or double arm pull) and not initiating the flip then kicking indicates a non-continuous motion.
While you made the right call, some of your explanations as to why you made it are in error. Summer league parents give you hell?
Now when in doubt, which it sounds like you were, don’t DQ.
I’ll be a bit more charitable to the OP and say that he was sure of the call at the time, but now he’s second guessing after taking flak from the swim parent mob (who often don’t have a clue what the actual rules are…)
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Sounds more like he is second-guessing himself now, but you’re generally right.
I’ve lit up S&T judges who weren’t sure or didn’t know the rules. It’s summer league swimming, and a bogus DQ hurts the kid far more than an iffy stroke/turn hurts the quality of a race.
OP, did any coaches approach you about the DQs? What’s leading you to question your calls now?
I’m not sure that you provided enough information to determine whether or not you made the correct call. As TriBrad stated “If the kicking occurs during the single continuous action of the single (or double) arm pull it is legit.”
The big question is: Was the swimmer’s pull arm still in motion while they were kicking? The swimmer can pull as slowly as they want. As long as they haven’t finished pulling, it is still a legal turn. We tell kids on our team that if they realize that they turned over to their breast too early, that they should take a VERY slow arm pull while kicking very hard into the wall; thus, they are making a legal turn.
If you cannot state the position and motion/lack of motion of the swimmer’s pull arm(s), then you cannot DQ the swimmer.
I’ll be a bit more charitable to the OP and say that he was sure of the call at the time, but now he’s second guessing after taking flak from the swim parent mob (who often don’t have a clue what the actual rules are…)
okay me too. Sorry OP : )
Upon seeing the free style kick, because at this point they were on the stomach and past the vertical part of breast, I made my ruling.
Just because you see a freestyle type kick does not mean it is an automatic DQ. Them being on stomach and past vertical and kicking is not a DQ. If the kicking occurs during the single continuous action of the single (or double) arm pull it is legit.
Them finishing the single (or double arm pull) and not initiating the flip then kicking indicates a non-continuous motion.
While you made the right call, some of your explanations as to why you made it are in error. Summer league parents give you hell?
Now when in doubt, which it sounds like you were, don’t DQ.
^ This is great advice.
To compound this, coaches often instruct the swimmer to keep the arm moving - ever so slowly - in the event the swimmer flipped a little early. Although the technique is very slow and inefficient - it should not be a DQ. As a stroke judge at a summer meet, I could imagine you needed to cover a few lanes. It is very difficult to see that an arm has stopped moving if that arm is on the opposite side of the body and a lane, or two, away. Remember it’s not what you think you see, it’s what you actually see.
These technical issue should have been covered during your morning briefing session. If you continue to work with this league, you should ask that very question at the next a.m. briefing session. Swimmers (and coaches/parents) go crazy when there is a level of inconsistency between judges/meets.
For the record…I hate backstroke!
#1: My interpretation of the backstroke turn rule:
They are allowed to initiate a flip onto their belly approaching the turn wall (shoulders past vertical) and then one arm pull once on their belly. The one arm pull can be two arm pulls if simultaneous (I don’t think I’ve EVER seen this). Once that one arm stroke has been completed, they must initiate the turn.
Initiating the turn means their head needs to start moving.
They’re not allowed to stay on their belly and kick towards the wall while hands have finished that last pull. In my opinion, this is one of those very subjective calls. And unless very obvious, benefit of the doubt goes to the swimmer.
#2: Stroke & Turn doesn’t DQ anybody.
They recommend DQ’ing. Chief judge should ask you about this and if you’re not sure say “I’m not sure”, at which point he might overrule you and discard the DQ slip.
SW 7.1 After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs during which the swimmer may be submerged. A single butterfly kick is permitted during the first arm stroke, followed by a breaststroke kick.
They changed the rule.
“No, when they break the rules it is usually deliberate, e.g. dolphin kick on the breaststroke pullout…”
Sounds more like he is second-guessing himself now, but you’re generally right.
I’ve lit up S&T judges who weren’t sure or didn’t know the rules. It’s summer league swimming, and a bogus DQ hurts the kid far more than an iffy stroke/turn hurts the quality of a race.
OP, did any coaches approach you about the DQs? What’s leading you to question your calls now?
You do realize they are volunteers and not having them hurts the kids even more. No different than any other volunteer. Treat them with respect or they stop volunteering.
SW 7.1 After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs during which the swimmer may be submerged. A single butterfly kick is permitted during the first arm stroke, followed by a breaststroke kick.
They changed the rule.
“No, when they break the rules it is usually deliberate, e.g. dolphin kick on the breaststroke pullout…”
I’m well aware that the rule was changed. I was referring to the time prior to the rule change, pretty much everyone was doing it, kitajima more than most. More recently, guys have been trying to get in a second dolphin kick on the start or on the pullout, because the way the rule is worded, the dolphin kick does not have to be simultaneous with the underwater pull. So the fast way has become to dolphin, then pull, and while pulling an extra dolphin might just sneak it’s way in. It’s a hard one to catch as well.
All of you gave very accurate interpretations of the USA Swimming rulebook. However, the OP stated it was a summer league meet. Many summer leagues actually allow kicking and / or gliding on the breast once the head is past the backstroke flags as long as only one arm pull is taken. Therefore, in many summer leagues, there is no call for “delay in initiating turn” because the rule does not allow for it. Here is the excerpt from our local summer league rulebook. You need to make sure you know what rules govern the particular meet you are officiating.
After the swimmer’s head has passed the backstroke
flags, the swimmer’s upper shoulder may rotate past
the vertical towards the breast, provided that the
rotation is accompanied by an initiation of the turning
action or continuation into the wall. After the
swimmer’s shoulder has rotated past the vertical
towards the breast, the swimmer may initiate the
turning action with a single-arm or simultaneous
double-arm pull. No additional arm pulls are permitted.
Kicking and gliding actions are permitted before and
after the turning action is initiated. The swimmer may
touch the wall on the breast without completing a flip
turn.