Pretty interesting story of what happened inside the boat when it hit the undersea mountain. They really tried hard to save the guy who died. 33 knots into a mountain; that’s a hell of a lot of kinetic energy. But the inner hull held.
It’s amazing that subs don’t carry a doctor on board, only a medic.
The medic on a sub is an Independent Duty Corpman, they went through extra training so that they can perscribe narcotics and stuff. While not a doctor they are still pretty good at most things, kind of like a really good RN.
I just heard of this story this morning, though it happened in January. Was there any prior coverage? (or coverupage?)
I just heard of this story this morning, though it happened in January. Was there any prior coverage? (or coverupage?)
No conspiracies here. It was reported. This is the first I’ve read of the details.
There was an amazing bit of medical work done on that sub.
I prefer the word Corpsman, as opposed to medic. You have to realize that it would not be very cost effective to have a Doctor on every submarine, let alone every ship in the Navy. That is where Independent Duty Corpsman comes in. We serve on small ships, submarines and isolated locations. We are more like a Physician Assistant than an RN. A Surface IDC like myself goes to school for 12 months (10 months didactic 2 months on the job) learning everything from doing your own labs, anatomy and physiology, physical assessment, diagnosing and treating many different diseases and injurys.
Next month I will be working at a major university medical center emergency room where I will have the responsibility of a 2nd year resident, the pay back however, is an all expense paid trip to Iraq.
Sub IDCs attend a month or two longer where they go more indepth into radiation medicine.
There was a recent story about a WWII Sub IDC who performed an appendectomy while underway.
You have to realize that it would not be very cost effective to have a Doctor on every submarine, let alone every ship in the Navy.
According to the CBO, the annual operating cost of a submarine is in the neighborhood of $35 million. What is the marginal difference in cost between a doctor and a corpsman? It can’t be very much.
Think about how many men on a submarine…100 or so.
Subs are underway for months at a time. The chances of something happening that required the skills of a doctor are fairly low.
Doctors are hard to find and are expensive to keep trained and paid. It makes sense to have them top side in a hospital or medical office where there is always a steady stream of people who can benefit from their skills on a daily basis. Corpsmen stationed on a sub can probably do a good job in getting a patient stable until further medical treatment can be obtained.
Relatively few Navy ships have actual doctors aboard. Ships and submarines especially, are at a premium for space. Using up rack space for a full time doctor instead of for a well trained IDC who is also able to stand watches wouldn’t be very smart. There’s more than enough medical facilities onboard large deck amphibs and carriers to deal with most emergencies, and if you can’t get to a medical facility, well, that’s why we make the big bucks.
We had two or three doctors onboard the Vinson (usually 2 since our Senior Medical Officer was a psychiatrist for most of the time I was deployed). They would fly people from other ships in our battle group over for surgery or advanced procedures when we were underway.
So if you figure that these two guys were responsible for ~8000 guys (5000 on the Vinson and 3000 guys in the battle group and merchant marines) they had a pretty good caseload versus having one guy for 100 sailor.
Here’s what I don’t understand, and I have been following the story in Navy Times:
The sea mount the sub hit was supposedly “uncharted” and the sub was in a lane designated as being clear for high speed runs. The actions taken to save the boat and crew appear to have been pretty heroic. Yet, the skipper has been relieved because of “loss of confidence.”
WTFO? Maybe you know more of the details–was other “dirty laundry” uncovered as a result of the investigation?
“WTFO?”
The skipper was relieved partly because skippers are always relieved when something this bad happens. Second, he didn’t ensure that his nav team did their due diligence in checking the other charts. They assumed the route was clear, even though that’s not what the route assignment technically means. They never looked at any other chart than the one they were using. They failed to do some basic steps and the responsibility for those types of errors will always fall on the shoulders of the Commanding Officer. The fact that he succesfully saved the boat afterwards doesn’t fix the initial problem.
submarines are different. while space is at more of a premium, they are more remote. if there is a medical emergency, it could take days to get someone off a sub to a doctor and is much more difficult. i doubt that’s the case with surface ships. i don’t buy the cost factor at all.
“submarines are different. while space is at more of a premium, they are more remote. if there is a medical emergency, it could take days to get someone off a sub to a doctor and is much more difficult. i doubt that’s the case with surface ships. i don’t buy the cost factor at all”
Well then you don’t understand the problem very well. There’s not much more a doctor could do on those subs than an IDC. An M.D. doesn’t come complete with an operating room, special equipment, etc. The cost isn’t the guy, it’s the associated facilities required to treat a patient.
Tell me what you think a doctor can do on a sub that an Independant Duty Corpsman couldn’t.
The cost isn’t the guy, it’s the associated facilities required to treat a patient.
And even that cost is probably less in terms of financial expense than space expense. I don’t think most people really grasp how much of a premium space is on a ship. Especially a sub.
Yeah I guess when I say “cost” I’m not talking strictly about dollar figures.
Though it costs thousands upon thousands to maximize the little space there is, so it does have a financial cost.
Tell me what you think a doctor can do on a sub that an Independant Duty Corpsman couldn’t.
I have no idea. I’m just assuming that doctors know things and can do things that people who aren’t doctors can’t. That’s why they go to medical school and have years of training. Call me naive. I’m not arguing for an OR on a sub – I understand those limitations.
“I have no idea. I’m just assuming that doctors know things and can do things that people who aren’t doctors can’t. That’s why they go to medical school and have years of training. Call me naive. I’m not arguing for an OR on a sub – I understand those limitations.”
I’m sure a dermatologist or a gastroenterologist or a surgeon or a pediatrician would bring certain levels of expertise to the table, but none of those things would be particularly useful on a sub. You would basically be looking for a general practioner, or maybe a trauma doc, which is basically what an IDC is. They can set bones, suture, dispense drugs with the COs permission, treat burns, treat all the normal viral type things, etc. The cost of having a fully trained and educated MD on a sub would be prohibitive. The reason isn’t just space or facilities, but also money because you would have an overqualified person basically doing sick call most of the time on the off chance that you might need the whole of his medical school knowledge for something. I think IDC are just fine.
“but also money because you would have an overqualified person basically doing sick call most of the time on the off chance that you might need the whole of his medical school knowledge for something. I think IDC are just fine.”
Put another way, you staff for the mean, not the extreme.
Slowman, I got a question. Are you an IDC? I am just curious, for I spent several years in the Coast Guard as an IDC.