Can someone tell me why a steeper seat tube angle utilizes more hams.? What does the actual forward position biomechanicaly do to the rider??? How does a steeper s.t. angel favor running muscles? If i’m not a runner, will a steeper s.t. angel be a benefit to me?
In a nutshell:
- May enable a more aerodynamic posture on the bike, reducing drag.
- May induce more even enlistment of muscles during the pedal stroke, facilitating an easier transition from bike to run (as opposed to one muscle group being primarily fatigued).
- May be more comfortable and require less energy to maintin a cycling posture, especially for longer events.
Lots of disclaimers here since a steepish (generally anything steeper than 77 degrees in my book)works for most people contingent on their body measurements, but not for everyone in all environments.
No one tool does all jobs optimally, but some tools are essential. For most multisport athletes, a steep seat angle bike properly fitted may be one of those essential tools contingent on their body dimensions.
- May induce more even enlistment of muscles during the pedal stroke, facilitating an easier transition from bike to run (as opposed to one muscle group being primarily fatigued).
Hey now I’m confused again. I’ve heard that the steeper positions are more quad-dependent and hence save your hamstrings for the run. Is that wrong? Most of the time - i hear that the shallower psoitions utilize more muscles…do we really know?
Can someone remind me about the leg to thigh measurements (how to measure) and how they equate to (in general) which style would most likley suit you. For example - long femur = better steeper? Or do i have that backwards?
Thanks
Yes, we do know that steeper is faster in triathlons for some people. We know that anecdotally and empiracally:
In Dan Empfield’s (Slowtwitch founder and owner, inventor of the triathlon bike as we know it today along with Ralph Ray, et al and founder of Quintana Roo) F.I.S.T. school manual he uses the Doran/Garside Study published in the Journal of Sports Sciences in June 2000.
The study, in a nutshell, substantiates the BIOMECHNAICAL benefits of the steep angle position: Its finding reveal that there is a minor advantage during the bicycle portion of a bike/run transition (be it duathlon or triathlon) but there is a much more substantial benefit during the run. In other words- you can generalize (based on the findings of the study) that people run faster off a 78-80 degree angle position than a 73-75 degree position.
Anecdotally I have no problem believing this. I know I can get off the bike and bust flaming ass from a tri bike, but die a thousand deaths and bleed through the eyes off a road bike. I used a road bike at Alcatraz with my position at 75.3 degrees. I had a great ride, and an abysmal first mile on the run.
Something important to remember is that the Doran/Garside study, as encapsulated in the F.I.S.T. manual, pays not heed to ANY aerodynamic benefit a correctly established triathlon bike position may provide. It is a biomechanical study only. To me, that is even more compelling evidence that steeper is better for most people.
This “trend” away from 78 degree frames to 76 degree frames with 700c is not market driven, it is industry driven. Manufacturers like Trek are scarred to jump in with both feet and make a dedicated tri bike at 78 degrees. They don;t understand why that is necessary and they don’t understand how to make the benefits apparent to their market. It is easier for them to mamaby-pamby around and say, “Ahh, well, Ahh we have found that blah, blah, blah and besides Lance rides blah, blah, blah…” And there is no substance to it. Lance is awesome. But he isn;t doing Ironmen (yet) and I am not Lance. I sometimes doubt I am a member of the same species as Lance. I need a 78 degree tri bike for flat course set up to ride at 79.5-80 degrees. Then I will be fast, low, aero , comfortable and can go like hell (for me) off the bike.
The fact that there has been so much confusion about this boggles my mind. It is like saying “Do you believe in gravity? I’m not convinced…” I have done hundreds of triathlons since well before Dan invented the Quintana Roo Superform. When he did invent it, I bought one. It was an 80 degree seat tube angle bike. I was faster. Way faster. I am still on about 80 degrees in the local races and most oof the international races I do like Ironman Canada, Laguna Phuket Thailand and Ironman New Zealand. In 23 years in the triathlon world I have learned something some people still don;t know: Steeper IS faster. Period. Don;t buy? the studies aren’t convincing enough? Another “expert” told you something else? No problem. I hope you’re in my age group. It just makes it easier for me. Much easier.
- May induce more even enlistment of muscles during the pedal stroke, facilitating an easier transition from bike to run (as opposed to one muscle group being primarily fatigued).
I agree with what Tom has to say about running faster off the bike (especially those first few miles!). I have to admit though that riding at 78-80 degrees really makes my lower quads hurt. Riding back further (74-75) causes my upper hamstrings to tighten resulting in a poor (more than usual!) run. My conclusion is that the 80 degree angle engages the quads more while the relaxed position favors hamstrings and glutes. I don’t think one position ‘engages more muscles’ or spreads out the work load more evenly. You have to find the position that suits you. I ride at 77 degrees - 80 and my quads tighten.
I have to jump on the steep tube bicycle bandwagon and say that the I am mystified at the bike position I see at races. I had (and still do) a 1987 Cannondale with the seat as far back on the rails as I could go. In my USCF racing days I would bolt on the aero bars for time trials and try to ride. It just killed me. I was slow and uncomfortable.
When I started tri’s in 2002 I knew nothing about steep angles. I bought a Scott Waimea off eBay and pulled together the other parts and started to ride. The more I experimented, the farther forward I went. First I flipped my post around, then bought a forward post until I was riding what I can only guess was about 82-85 degrees. I still didn’t have a flat back because the head tube was too long.
Back to eBay I went (there is no local shop and I am too poor to buy new) and bought an old P2 circa 1998. Finally, I could get really low. Unfortunately, my first couple of races were terrible and I began to wonder. I had my post flipped forward with the seat as far forward as the rails would go. I bought a seat shifter, put in on three days before the Eagleman tri this year and presto, problem solved.
I constantly pass people whose position is far back or very upright and wonder how they ended up there. Here are my four guesses:
They think that deep an aero position is uncomfortable. The local shop sells road bikes and doesn’t know anything about triathlon. They think that bolting aero bars on a road bike makes it a tri bike. Really low aero positions are for “serious” riders. It is hard to generate power from so low a position.
To the first supposition I say, yes you are right. However, the human body adapts to almost anything and with enough miles it will become more comfortable. I can hold it up to about two hours, then I have to do something to elevate my elbows every now and then for a break.
The second problem is hard to overcome because there are not tri stores everywhere. There are none within an hour’s drive of where I live.
The third problem is one of perception. The same person who will spend $1000 on race wheels doesn’t have enough faith in themselves to jump in and try what the pros do. Obviously not every pro agrees, but Peter Reid has won three times in Hawaii and the pictures I have seen of is bike position seem a perfect model to follow.
To the last issue, I say “Who cares?” This isn’t a time trial. We have to run after we get off, so efficiency is more important than power. And, if you believe the Slowman and his power meter, higher RPM spinning is more efficient at high power anyway and that is about the only way I can ride when I am so low in front.
By riding low, aero and at high RPM, I optimize my efficiency during the bike leg and can then jump off and run 35 minutes for a flat 10K.
I’m racing steep and low (aero), but I train on a normal road bike in a normal (73-74) position. 2 weeks before a race i start using my steep race bike. I just can’t ride slowly on a steep bike and it isn’t comfortable on longer training rides (no comfort problems during an ironman).
Is this a good idea?
How do the (steep racing) AG and Pro’s train?
Hi all,
I have had all sorts of bikes and am currently riding around 75 degrees. Though there may be some study somewhere saying the steeper “IS” faster, I know that I’m comfortable, fast, and happy on my ride. I’m so tempted right now to say something about kicking some AG a**, but I’m not going to go there.
As a complete aside, has anyone had difficulties running the cane creek brake calipers (I can’t remember their technical name) with full-length, internally routed cable housing? I can’t get it dialed. Thanks.
The above comment is very relevant and shows that different people and body types can achieve comfortable positions at different seat angles. A friend of mine rode 2:12 for 56 miles at this year’s Eagleman and did it on a bike that looked like about 74 degrees. His run always suffered though, and he is looking for something steeper. With long legs and a short body, I have to move very forward to find any comfort.
I use a different strategy to yours, but the idea is the same. I can’t ride my steep bike slow either because it is very uncomfortable. So I ride it on my hard days and sometime long days when I need to get my neck and legs used to the low front end.
On easy days I ride my old Cannondale road bike. I did put a forward post on it so the change wasn’t so extreme from my race bike, but I don’t use aero bars at all.
As I approach the meat of my race schedule I tend to ride the tri bike more often, especially if I have half-IM distance races coming. Lately, I have changed my philosophy somewhat because I using PowerCranks and I can ride for long in the aero position.
Your explaination for steeper seat tube angle is best Ive read. I am about to jump from road bike to Tri bike, this clinched it for me. Only issue now is do I go for 650 wheels. It seems the bikes I want with specific 78 seat angles all have 650 (litspeed saber and Kestrel EM40). I just can decide. I have hard time believing that smaller wheels will not make me spin faster exert more effort and not go any faster…plus are they less comfortable. (Im 5’ 8’ 154lbs)