Example being a 20 minute interval at 90-103% of FTP. Should I, or would it be even ok for me to stand up for 30-60 seconds in the middle? 5 minutes at the end? Why or why not? What is happening on the pysiology level to influence your response here? Would it make a difference for a flat TT’er as opposed to a rolling crit racer? Different muscles? Is it like taking a break?
1min is 5% of your interval - seems loke a lot to me. I do lots of 20’ & 30’ intervals and I never stand. I make all ‘package’ adjustments & get comfy before starting the work. You probably use more energy standing, with the arm movements, bobbing, weaving, etc…I think worse than taking a break is lost time breaking the aero position.
Aren’t you a coach?
If it were a one-off instance…then no worries. But if you are finding yourself doing it regularly during the efforts…then you ought to be looking at the source of discomfort you’re looking to relieve. Usually its because someone is going too hard.
On a flat course, with no hard turns or hills, I can’t really think of any reasons to stand up during threshold workouts…
since when is it safe to assume that a “Coach” knows anything about training with power?
As to the OP, why would you stand during your intervals? Are you planning on standing while racing? If the goal is to get raster racing triathlon I think it would be best to do your intervals in the bars, the way you will hopefully be riding on race day.
Yes.
I’d think a basic understanding about power is the minimal level of competency to coach.
Question wasn’t about me and what I do during intervals, or even about what I know or prescribe based on my “coachness”. Question and any pertinent responses will be directed to an athlete that sometimes does not want to do or believe what they have been told.
Thanks for the vote of confidence DD and Chris G. Do you guys ever ask a question that pertains to your chosen field or once you become a “dude from the desert”, do you henceforth know all there is to know about dudeness and desertness? DD, can you answer the question, because if you can I would love to hear your answer, and if you can’t you probably should not reply to this thread, if you are only attempting to question my coaching ability.
Of course I ask questions about my chosen professions. I also know where to go look for the answer(s). 99% of the time it’s not on ST. There are places much, much better then ST for that type of information.
I think if you search through my posts re: coaching, you can judge for yourself if I know what I’m talking about or not.
When I perform 2x20, ideally it will have 3 minutes rest in between. However, during the on segments, I target an iso power effort, so the VI is 1.00. It might be 1.01, if I really ramp up the final 5 minutes to a VO2 max type of effort. No standing. FWIW, right now I’m training for TT, RR, and Crits.
I strongly advocate holding your desired position for the duration. If you are on a road bike, and you are doing flat to rolling TT, RR, Crits, then do the whole interval on the rivet and in the drops. If you are training for a TT on a TT bike, then its aero 100% for the interval. Position is critical. If you have to alter your position, then you have overestimated your FTP for the position.
Here is an example, earlier this year when I was getting back in shape, I only had time for a short workout, so I did 1x20:00 TT on the rollers. Ended up with 352. However, most of this was with my hands on the bars (ie like a long climb position). No way I could hold that in the drops at that point. I cheated that day, and I still see it as a top 10 20-minute effort this season. Fortunately, its next to drop off that list, and the rest of them aren’t from “cheater” intervals! 
It really depends upon what you are training for, but for me 2x20 are sacred events which are done on the emotion rollers, indoors, static position, and iso power.
Question wasn’t about me and what I do during intervals, or even about what I know or prescribe based on my “coachness”. Question and any pertinent responses will be directed to an athlete that sometimes does not want to do or believe what they have been told.
Thanks for the vote of confidence DD and Chris G. Do you guys ever ask a question that pertains to your chosen field or once you become a “dude from the desert”, do you henceforth know all there is to know about dudeness and desertness? DD, can you answer the question, because if you can I would love to hear your answer, and if you can’t you probably should not reply to this thread, if you are only attempting to question my coaching ability.
I did not question your “coachness” at all DD did. From your reply it appears that your athlete does not believe what you tell him/her and you want to bolster your advice with what the folks on ST have to say? i do not think ST can help with what is wrong with that picture.
I ask questions regarding my chosen field all the time. I ask professionals that I trust and or who have more expertise than I do in the specific field. I have never had a client who did not “want to do or believe” what I told them and then sought advice on the net to help convince them I was correct.
So you don’t have any answers to the questions. Allrighty then.
I think you know what you are talking about without going through your posts, which is why I would have expected more from you in reply. So do you have an answer to the original question or not?
I’ll rephrase… From a standpoint of physiological principles and training effects, why should a person not alter their position during a long iso-power threshold interval? Or should they? What factors come into play specifically on cellular or other levels?
To your other point:
I look to ST for a whole bunch of information about triathlon and coaching. Also PubMed at times, the wattage forum, various books and textbooks. Curious as to these “much much better places than ST” for this type of information? Care to elaborate? I mean with geniuses like you on here all the time always ready to lend a helping hand, where else should I bother looking? Christ man, people can get better medical advice here than at their Dr’s office if they know the right people to ask. Plenty of good lawyers here as well if you need some pro bono advice and know the right guys. And by time this thread dies, there will likely be very good answers to this question.
So did I really ask a basic coaching or training with power question that anyone who calls themself a coach should know the answer to? Or did I ask a question kinda peripheral to coaching that someone a little better versed in ex phys could do a better job with? I would think that as a coach, first, don’t have your athletes doing silly stuff like standing in the middle of intervals, and then if they keep pushing and pushing for a more in depth “why?”, it would be ok to look around for an answer that had terms like substrate utilization and whatnot included. Maybe I’m wrong.
I would doubt that 1 in 10 coaches on this board has answers to these questions of the level I seek. And many of them are good coaches. I think this question goes a little more than a little beyond “a basic understanding of power”. Honestly, I have never seen a real thorough answer to this question with data or a study to back it up. So seriously, do you have an answer or just a bunch of negativity to offer up here? I welcome an answer, but if all you have is more of the same then piss off cause I’m not in the mood for the standard ST bs right now.
Seriously Brian, don’t just try to make me look a little dumb. Go all the way with it, completely discredit me… let’s have that answer that is oh so simple. I mean gosh, then all of Richmond VA will be saying how Dave Luscan doesn’t know why to remain seated during threshold intervals from the perspective of exercise physiology. We better all move to Arizona where we can get coached by that oh so clever and good looking Brian Stover.
Flanagan, thanks for the reply. Can always count on you.
It really depends upon what you are training for, but for me 2x20 are sacred events which are done on the emotion rollers, indoors, static position, and iso power.
I failed to clarify this statement, which leaves my post quite ambiguous. Position should be what you are training for, and that is the dependent factor. If you are training for a hill climb, where you might be out of the saddle, then I could see doing FTP stuff out of the saddle; however, I would certainly advocate doing most of your FTP stuff in the saddle. In fact, I would not recommend criss-crossing within intervals too much. Pick a position, duration, and intensity, and keep it iso power. Maybe 20 #1 is seated and #2 is standing. That would be tough!!!
I’m not a coach but here’s my take.
Power is power. If you do your interval with part of it out of the saddle then you are still producing the physical stress that your training session is aiming for.
If you are aiming to produce power in a certain position and find that you can’t produce the same power that you can out of the saddle, then that still doesn’t mean that you should train solely in that position. You will still gain fitness (maybe more) if you vary your position.
For example, riders get good results training with power on a road bike even if they only compete on a TT bike; the physical adaption still occurs.
Another analogy; runner’s usually can’t hold good form as long as they can run (if that makes sense). I wouldn’t stop running just because I’m so tired that I don’t run with perfect form anymore, I’m still gaining fitness…others disagree though.
My thoughts are along those lines too.
But what the heck do I know…I’m not a coach, just someone that helps friends.
jaretj
Flanagan, npearson99 and jaretj I appreciate the responses.
Brian on the other hand… I have asked you the same question now a bunch of times. You have essentially told me and the rest of the forum I am not a good coach because I had to ask this question. You have insinuated it is a silly question with an obvious answer. But you have not answered it. Which can only lead me to conclude that it was in fact, not a stupid question, but more importantly, you don’t actually know the answer. I mean I’m sure you have some type of answer. The question is will your answer be good enough for you to maintain your credibility here while still undermining mine?
The truth is Brian, I think all your jerk-off posturing here has put you in the postion of choosing between the lesser of two evils: Evil #1 - I am right, you don’t have an answer because the question is not so simple and you are not so smart as you are trying to make us believe. Evil #2 - You do have an answer (I think this is probably it) but you are not so sure about your answer anymore. You are afraid to come out and say “Here’s your answer moron!” because you know someone who knows more than you or me will pop out of the Slowtwitch woodwork to point out where you forgot to dot an I or cross a T.
The reality of this particular query I put forward is that there is no good research (I was able to find) that points in any direction. There is a lot of conversation, most of the well-versed coach types espousing the ideas put forth by previous posters. Specitivity. Stay in the position. Isopower and reduce the variables in your intervals. On the other hand…it doesn’t matter, threshold is threshold, power is power etc. I know the mantras, the dogmas and the karmic implications of standing during your threshold intervals. I have read more about standing during intervals than most USAT certified coaches have read about intervals period.
I coach an athlete that essentially wants a better explanation than I can give. Why “exactly” should they not stand in the middle of their threshold intervals? Because it is like taking a break…but I’m still at threshold power?..taking a break…still at threshold hr… different muscles…same muscles… you race TT’s…sometimes I stand during them…specific adapatations to the specific demands of your specific event…huh?
This guy (the athlete) is a scientist with some ex phys experience. I am a physicist. I don’t speak in the substrate utilization mitochondria density capillary bed Krebs cycle lingo that the ex phys folks converse in. I started this thread so I could take some info I know both intuitively and in layman’s terms and be able to describe the process in ex phys terms. And I started this thread in a manner in which I could not only find out the answers I wanted, but to also watch the conversation develop, which is one of the best damn things about this site. So I played dumb just a little.
One of the worst damn things on this site is having a self-proclaimed expert chime in to let you know your question is stupid and you’re stupid for asking it. Thanks Brian. You make this site great with your contributions to many threads. Then you drag the forum down with these egotistical, non-response responses you are giving here.
Last time, do you have an answer? We will all just assume you know even less than me if you fail to respond. I actually hope you can give a definitive answer here. That would certainly make you worth at least $25 more / month than me.
Dave Luscan
www.endorphinfitness.com “Where there are no stupid questions”
my power usually drops pretty quickly when I stand, therefore, if I am doing an FTP interval of a prescribed time (15-20-30 minutes) then /my goal is to maintain the power for that duration, so no standing is not cool in my opinion during an ftp interval. according to some real coaches, power is power, so if you can get the power, it dosent matter how you do it. I cant maintain FTP on a trainer while standing for very long ( I have no problem doing it on a hill).
Again, appreciate the response as it gets right to my previous point(s)
- It is not an easy question, so you can still coach if you don’t know the answer.
- Opinions differ.
- Brian was being a jerk.
Anyone find any research to support an opinion one way or the other here?
Dave - I’m not a coach, but my wife is and I’ve picked up some stuff from her. We run some indoor CT-based workouts throughout the crappy IL fall/winter and I’ll throw my two cents into the hat. Seems to me that a 20 min interval at such a high percentage of FTP is geared purely toward strength building, and standing would indeed lessen the desired effect of the workout. Yes, it’s like taking a break in that some of the targeted muscle groups get a break while the larger and stronger quads take over while standing. Like I said, I’m not a coach but you’re seeking opinions and that’s mine. Yes, there’s a place for intervals where you alternate between seated and standing, but that’s a different type of workout.
On another subject, I grew up in Richmond (Godwin HS, UR class of '89) and I’m heading home to visit the family this weekend (Thurs-Mon). Will be out in the West End and if I get a chance, I’d love to check out your facility.
Mike