How many among us have used (i.e tested/been tested in) a wind tunnel? If you haven’t, why not?
Share your experiences (if you’ve tunnel tested), your thoughts on wind tunnels if you haven’t, etc.
Let’s go inside the mind of the triathlete and hear about FASTER, A2, San Diego LSWT, Texas A&M, SpeedTunnel, etc.
No, don’t want to spend the money on it currently and I need to improve my engine more than my position. At 25 mph on 240 watts I’m probably pretty close to optimal to not make it worth the effort right now.
Interesting. Are you planning on buying any new equipment in the next year that would improve your aerodynamics?
ETA: What would it be worth to you to save time? i.e what is your watts (or Cd/CdA/grams of drag) saved/$$ spent threshold?
I’m poor and find field testing exciting, that’s why I haven’t been to the tunnel.
Chris, aka Leegoocrap, posted tis thread not too long ago.
Chris, aka Leegoocrap, posted tis thread not too long ago.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...trip_to_A2!_P3995783
Thanks! I searched through about 10-15 pages of “wind tunnel” or “have you been to a wind tunnel” results before I posted my thread, but I’m glad you found this. This is what I’m looking for.
As for you Mr. Bryancd, have you been to a wind tunnel?
Fair enough. Same question to you, though…what’s your threshold $$/ time/drag savings?
^ Thanks Bryan 
I have a little thing worked up on my blog that I posted about it also. (/plug)
Yes, it’s fairly expensive ($420/hr at A2) but it is certainly an A+ experience. David (Salazar) knows his stuff as does Jim (O’Brien) who does the “heavy lifting” of adjusting you in the tunnel.
I was nervous, basically for reasons Grant stated above (I already had a very good position comparing my low watts to time splits) so I sort of went in with a weird “It would be cool to have just got all of it right on my own, but then I’ve wasted $1200” feeling. That said, I still made some pretty big drops (a little under a minute ina 40k), despite the fact that I went in with the second fastest position we tested all day.
If you haven’t spent countless hours playing with the Chung method, rolldowns, Aerolab and the like (I had) then you can expect some very serious return on your investment IMO. Probably more than you’ll get anywhere else. If you have, there is still likely some low hanging fruit out there, albeit at a higher cost per watt saved.
Yes, it’s fairly expensive ($420/hr at A2) but it is certainly an A+ experience. David (Salazar) knows his stuff as does Jim (O’Brien) who does the “heavy lifting” of adjusting you in the tunnel.
Do you feel like the folks there sold you on an experience or did it help that you have an aero buddy and a bit of background yourself?
I was nervous, basically for reasons Grant stated above (I already had a very good position comparing my low watts to time splits) so I sort of went in with a weird “It would be cool to have just got all of it right on my own, but then I’ve wasted $1200” feeling. That said, I still made some pretty big drops (a little under a minute ina 40k), despite the fact that I went in with the second fastest position we tested all day.
So you spent 3 hours there? What factored into your decision on how much time to spend there? Obviously, cost is a huge limiting factor, but can you walk me through your cost-benefit thoughts?
That is pretty cool that you walked in there with a good position. Do you see your time in the wind tunnel as money well spent?
If you haven’t spent countless hours playing with the Chung method, rolldowns, Aerolab and the like (I had) then you can expect some very serious return on your investment IMO. Probably more than you’ll get anywhere else. If you have, there is still likely some low hanging fruit out there, albeit at a higher cost per watt saved.
Did you do any of the above field-testing prior to going in there? Do you think there would have been other things you could have done prior to going to A2 that would have increased the value/utility of the time you spent there? (i.e additional prep work, refining your selections for which positions you test)
Do you feel like the folks there sold you on an experience or did it help that you have an aero buddy and a bit of background yourself?
I’m not sure I understand your question. Care to rephrase? I will say that from my years of marketing, once you commit to something it always looks better to you
So you spent 3 hours there? What factored into your decision on how much time to spend there? Obviously, cost is a huge limiting factor, but can you walk me through your cost-benefit thoughts?
I thought 3 hours would be enough to get “everything” I wanted in. (which was a lot, almost 30 runs) I’d suggest to anyone else to go with 2 hours though. It’s tough to spend 3 hours doing 2min intervals all the while holding as perfectly still as you can, and if you start squirming then you’ll get bad results.
That is pretty cool that you walked in there with a good position. Do you see your time in the wind tunnel as money well spent?
Yes. I think the comfort of not having to “guess” any more is a substantial thing that can be overlooked pretty easily. I know my position now is pretty much as good as it can get. Also, the primary change I made (going to 25 degree of “mantis”) was something that could have VERY easily been overlooked without the tunnel, as both 20 and 30 degrees were slower than level for me.
Did you do any of the above field-testing prior to going in there?
yes
Do you think there would have been other things you could have done prior to going to A2 that would have increased the value/utility of the time you spent there? (i.e additional prep work, refining your selections for which positions you test)
As far as the positions… no not really. My “position” was nailed before I walked in the door. We tested hand height/angle/width mainly, along with where I held my head.
I wish I had thought of some other things to test before going in of course - I should have got 1 test with no rider on my bike is the big one that skipped my mind and I kick myself over, but there are others.
'm not sure I understand your question. Care to rephrase? I will say that from my years of marketing, once you commit to something it always looks better to you
What did you feel like you got out of the experience? Did you feel like you were just buying tunnel time, or do you feel like you got a product (be it a tangible or intangible one)?
Speed? An advantage over your competitors? Pictures/Videos? The “cool factor” of doing something so high-tech? Better bike fit (i.e comfort)?
gotcha!
It’s very down to business (and you want it to be… trust me you don’t want to waste your time chit chatting) and professional. I felt like I got what I paid for certainly. I mean, I already have in the back of my mind the desire to go back to try out some more equipment changes… although that would be a long time down the road for sure.
I haven’t yet but plan on going at the end of this month to the mobile wind tunnel. http://www.speedtunnel.net
It’s a not a bad price and everyone that I have talked to around here that has done it has said nothing but good things. I’ll post a review with pics/savings when I go.
Where are you going to meet it?
What’s the price like?
Have you seen any reviews or information about the accuracy/validity of the testing in the SpeedTunnel?
Fair enough. Same question to you, though…what’s your threshold $$/ time/drag savings?
Ok, I’ll play. I would pay something like $800-1000 if I was guaranteed to pick up one minute over 40k. The problem is that gains from wind tunnel testing are far from guaranteed. It’s a gamble compared to equipment upgrades where the gains/$ are much easier to predict. Even if the wind tunnel potentially had a greater ROI, I’d be tempted to choose a lower risk investment in equipment. This only applies since I haven’t come close to exhausting the possibilities with equipment. I’m still riding an old alu Specialized Transition with previous-gen wheels.
Plus, I have great faith in the ST Collective Eyeball Wind Tunnel.
How many among us have used (i.e tested/been tested in) a wind tunnel? If you haven’t, why not?
I’d be camped out in the wind tunnel if I could afford it. If you’re working with a good and experienced group of people, it’s time-efficient, you can do non-zero yaw, and it’s much easier than doing field testing.
Going to meet it in Clearwater, i’m local.
For $450 you get 7-9 runs. They adjust your position and let you test out whatever gear you want. For a bit more you have the option for a RETUL but I have already had that done.
I haven’t seen anything on paper only word of mouth. All the local TT guys are super hyped on it and so are the lbs owners I have spoken to. Not sure where I would find out info on the accuracy or validity of it.
I would pay something like $800-1000 if I was guaranteed to pick up one minute over 40k.
Interesting. Any idea what it would cost to gain the same amount of time with equipment?
The problem is that gains from wind tunnel testing are far from guaranteed. It’s a gamble compared to equipment upgrades where the gains/$ are much easier to predict. Even if the wind tunnel potentially had a greater ROI, I’d be tempted to choose a lower risk investment in equipment.
What have you read/seen that led you to view the wind tunnel as a risky investment?
This only applies since I haven’t come close to exhausting the possibilities with equipment. I’m still riding an old alu Specialized Transition with previous-gen wheels.
Doesn’t the fact that you’re riding a less-than-optimal bike/setup mean that you would be even more likely to see benefits from the wind tunnel? I would have thought that the opposite would be true (viz. someone with a high-end setup might be more likely to view their setup as aero optimized and see less opportunity for improvement).
Plus, I have great faith in the ST Collective Eyeball Wind Tunnel.
Does the thread that Bryancd linked regarding leegoocrap’s WT experience, and the pictures+analysis that ST did change your view of the utility of the eyeball wind tunnel?
I’d be camped out in the wind tunnel if I could afford it. If you’re working with a good and experienced group of people, it’s time-efficient, you can do non-zero yaw, and it’s much easier than doing field testing.
Define afford it?
Also, how do you perceive the relative value (to you) of wind tunnel testing vs. a tangible good in the same price range? Basically, if you were to spend $400 or $800, would you see more value in spending it on WT time or on gear? Which would you rather do, even if you see more value in one or the other? What I’m getting at, is, if you knew that 1-2 hours in the wind tunnel would save you more drag than a lustworthy item, say a $400 item like a Ventus bar or a Powertap hub or something, would you choose the physical gear item over the tunnel time?
I spent a few hours in the UW low speed wind tunnel this spring. It was a very educational experience both for my testing and watching the process of other’s testing positions or equipment. That said it was also good news bad news, good in that my position was already pretty decent, bad in that a bunch of trial runs and efforts to fine tune position, compare different helmets, and skinsuit options didn’t do anything to reduce my drag. The only thing that even marginally helped was totally removing my elbow pads and stacking my arms right on top of the extension bars and even that drag reduction was under the accuracy level of the tunnel’s balance saving a whopping 10 grams in a position I could never actually ride as elbow pads are kinda important but it showed that narrowing my elbows till they touched didn’t really help much if at all.
I’ve done a lot of power based Chung and regression based field testing in the past four or five years so maybe I’ve already picked all the low hanging fruit but I’ve also compared power files with friends and team mates of similar size and weight that TT a lot faster on less power so I’m not exactly the most aero guy out there. The frustrating thing is that even some really big changes like dropping or rising the front end by several cm made no difference in the measured drag numbers, so it wasn’t even easy to ‘break’ my position to see if I was at least already at some sort of local minima.
I’m glad I went and learned some useful things but I’d hoped to come out of the experience with a faster position or to know with certainty things like which helmet to wear (GA II or Selector with either tail section measured the same within 5 grams or so on a balance with an accuracy in the 12 to 15 gram range) and it seems at least in my case it just doesn’t make much difference.
So I guess that’s one story of the possible risk, spend some cash and come away the same as you went in. But I’m still happy I did it as it helps explain why some of the same experiments also seemed the same during field testing and it’s likely that my field results were pretty reliable which is always hard to know as things like even light winds can really mess with the numbers outdoors.
In terms of where to spend cash, I’d assume folks are already running deep wheels, reasonably fast clothing and a decent helmet before they start thinking about tunnel time. If it’s a question of upgrading from alloy box wheels to a deep wheelset or spending that cash on tunnel time I’d probably opt for the wheels. Similarly if it’s a question of getting a power meter as suggested above vs. tunnel time I’d definitely go with the meter as what that can do for training, analysis, and race pacing can make huge differences not to mention it makes field testing your position a much more viable option. But if you’ve already got a pretty clean and aero front end and you’re thinking of say some thousand dollar integrated carbon bars vs. the tunnel time and you’re already running a reasonably aero setup I’d probably go with the tunnel.
I might try it again someday but if I spend cash on tunnel time again I’d like it to be in the presence of someone like John Cobb who’s fitted many, many cyclists of differing body types and has a framework and philosophy for what’s more or less likely to work for different folks. We tested high, low, short, long, helmets and clothing with a very skilled aerodynamics expert but it lacked a set of very experienced bike fitter’s eyes to steer the process and I can’t really know if there’s a much better solution that we just didn’t try that day.
-Dave