My SPL sits at 18-19 whether I do DPS drills, cruise, or even sprint 25y. Of course, there’s a huge difference in speed. The only way I can get my SPL lower is with an obvious glide. And if I intentionally raise my turnover to maximum rate and shorten the back end a lot, I’ll get a few extra strokes as well.
Shouldn’t there be a huuuge difference between easy swimming (say 25-27 seconds per length) and sprinting (approx 18-20 secs)?
Shouldn’t there be a huuuge difference between easy swimming (say 25-27 seconds per length) and sprinting (approx 18-20 secs)?
Why do you think there would be a big difference in DPS?
Should be very close, hence the reasoning for drills…DPS!
Gordo had a cool statement in reference to this. It was something to the effect that whether you are cruising or at threshold you should appear the same from an onlooker’s point of view—i.e., same turnover etc just a lot more application of force.
Personally my stroke count went way down after I learned to kick the right way and also time my kick the right way. I feel like a much taller swimmer now that I’ve fixed that.----Increasing my ankle flexibility has helped a great deal too.
While in theory the distance per stroke should be the same, in practice most triathletes, except the best will slip when the speed goes up. Ideally, you won’t slip, but you can spend all year trying to look pretty and get a long distance per stroke and swim 80 min for an Ironman. I think it is good to train distance per stroke for some time, but you also have to jack up stroke rate in your training. I’d rather slip a bit and swim faster than look pretty have long distance per stroke and swim slow. Joanna Zeiger is an example of a swimmer with high stroke rate who does slip (or so it would appear when sitting on the pool deck and watching her). She can hang with the lead pro men pack (kinda).
Anyway, I don’t know if she has a longer distance per stroke when swimming slow.
Can someone explain “slip?” All I got when I looked on the internet was something about slipping on the side of the pool.
Most of us slip when we swim. This means that the point that our hands leave the water is behind the point where we anchor. Guys like Popov have such perfect technique and huge propulsion from the legs that their hand actually leaves the water almost in front of where it anchored.
Shouldn’t there be a huuuge difference between easy swimming (say 25-27 seconds per length) and sprinting (approx 18-20 secs)?
Why do you think there would be a big difference in DPS?
Well, because when I swim “fast” I am pulling harder. Stands to reason that I would slip more, unless that harder pull speeds me up more than enough to offset that increased slip.
Ok, I get it…I think. Thanks for the explanation.
For swimming those speeds I have the same stroke count for the faster and slower times.
In my 100 free last weekend I was 2 strokes per length higher than my normal and that was the fastest 100 I have done.
jaretj
The amount of slippage is not tied to how hard you pull, only to your technique. If your technique falls apart when you try to swim faster, then your DPS will decrease.
You may actually find that DPS increases a little when you sprint, if you have a very strong kick.
It was something to the effect that whether you are cruising or at threshold you should appear the same from an onlooker’s point of view.
That is probably true, but it doesn’t hold when you are talking about sprinting. When sprinting, turnover needs to go up.
The amount of slippage is not tied to how hard you pull, only to your technique.
Can you explain this more?
To some extent I agree with More is More however, let me amplify as it is just not technique.
When you sprint, you need to increase stroke rate (cadence if you want to use a biking word), while maintaining the same distance per stroke (inches of gear if you want to use a biking teminology). But the reality is that most of us cannot. One is because of technique that he points out. The other is the strength to actually “hold” the water. There are lots of dudes that look pretty when swimming slow. Its another thing to look pretty when going fast. Slowman wrote about the “high cost” of good form. Most of us don’t have the strength, nor fitness to hold the water when swimming faster…so we slip a bit, or we don’t finish our stroke and cut it short. To some extent, after you spend many months working on distance per stroke, you can chose to live with your limited technique and stength and stay with an artificially high stroke length and swim slow, or jack up the stroke rate, and perhaps cut the stroke short (for example, not finishing hard with triceps) and swim Joanna Zeiger style.
Looking at all, the triathletes out there with pretty strokes and swimming slow, I’d say they’d be better off spending the time close to race season on stroke rate. Openwater swims are great for this. Just set the beaper on your watch and count right and left hand entries. There are no walls and turns to mess up your count over a minute.
Let me rephrase it another way going back to the bike analogy. It is easy to bike at 100 RPM in your 39x14on the flats. It is also easy to bike on a flat at 60 RPM in your 53x14. But it is tough to ride on the flats at 53x14 at 100 RPM. When you go hard, you might end up at say 53x16 at 93 RPM
Dev
Dev, you are on the money. I didn’t have the time to explain it more fully, unfortunately.
If you are able to maintain the same form when sprinting vs cruising, strokes per length will remain the same. Think of it like the amount of water you allow to slip is the same per stroke, but when swimming faster that slippage occurs faster as well.
Many people get sloppy when they try to sprint (especially triathletes, since most triathletes never truly sprint in practice). That is why DPS might go down. Whether it is inadequate strength / stamina to maintain the technique, or just poor technique to begin with, it is still technique.
Hey, all good points. I think every triathlete should include 10x50 min sprint as part of each practice…why ? Because you need this to get on good feet at the start of the race, or to close on a set of feet if you get detached at some point in the race! Hopefully you won’t need to sprint for 50 m, but a 10-20 m surge is often needed many times mid race for tactical reasons!
Dev,
Well said.
I am just saying that we should just observe stroke ct not live or die by it. To expand your analogy, when riding, we have to find a gear that allows us to maintain a tempo at a specific level of waste (cost), that we know we can maintain (ie run off of…) I would say that in swimming we always, not just pre season, need to be working on tempo and never DPS. The problem with DPS is that before the season even comes, people are just turned off to swimming as their bodies can’t take it anymore. They call it burnout, but it is really just your (nuerological) system being sick and tired of being over run all the time by ideas of DPS. The other reason is injury. Start tempo training now, observe stroke counts, but dont be ruled by them.
dave
The other thing about DPS are these blanket statements that some misinformed coaches make about “you should not be over 20 strokes per lengths etc etc”. The reality is that a 5’3" person will need more strokes at the same speed to keep up with a 6’6" person, which is why Joanna Zeiger can keep up with the pro men.
For that matter, and I don’t know if she reading this thread, but someone like T-racer who is 5’2" and goes 10:25 in Kona off a 1:14 swim really would benefit from stroke rate.
Finally another thing to keep in mind…in an ocean swim when the tide is pulling out, and if you are a short athlete with an inherently short distance per stroke due to shorter wingspan, you need to really jack up stroke rate or you’ll be literally going backward fast. A perfect example of this was the huge swim spread between Michellie Jones and Natasha Badmann in Kona. Natasha spead to Michelle was even worse than normal.
Aztec,
Keep in mind that sprinting comes from your legs. Your six bet kick is going much faster when you sprint. Your arm turnover is tied to the rhythm of your legs. You will cover a greater distance per stroke when you sprint because your are generating much more power both from your arms and legs. The faster your legs move the faster your arms turnover and you get to the other side of the pool sooner.
DougStern
Doug, may I add, that this only applies if you can rotate and catch the water quickly enough to keep up with your legs. For many of us, when our legs go quicker our upper bodies turn from speedboat to barge as we can’t keep up. Any suggestion on how to maintain a sleek hydrodynamic profile while increasing stroke rate?