It is not hard to understand why they hate us. This is not difficult. We are free and wealthy and successful. They are under tyrany, poor and failures.
No. They hate us because they think we are godless infidels who are a threat to their religious ideals. To paraphrase Pat Buchanan(!), it isn’t as if bin Laden suddenly discovered a copy of the Constitution and just went beserk.
Not everyone thinks wealth and success are the same thing.
Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with the people’s freedom. Remember Bush’s foreign policy position during the 2000 campaign - “…no nation building…”? If not for 911 the US wouldn’t be in these countries. Well, Iraq maybe since the hard right chicken hawks Bush (Viet Nam deserter), Rummie, and Tricky Dick Cheney (“had other priorities”) had this on their minds ever since Poppie Bush whimped out with the first go around. Remember Art - Iraq was supposedly within 45 mins of dropping the A bomb on the east coast or whatever.
Before 911 how much did the US give a shit about the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? Not much. Saddam was the darling of the US for 20 years until he made the mistake of invading Kuwait. The Taliban had been oppressing and killing the Afghan people for years and the US didn’t seem too concerned. The US has also been propping up the corrupt Saudi regime for decades. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict - our overt support for the killer Sharon. The list of tyrants the US supported in South America is too long to get into. And on and on and on…
That’s why the poor and oppressed of the Middle East despise the US.
They also hate us because we go into their countries and slaughter their civilians. We did exactly what Bin Laden wanted us to do after 9/11: Go into Islamic countries like Rambo without a Jockstrap, kill thousands of innocents and create a catalyst for Al Queda recruiting.
Estimates place civilian casualties in Afghanistan at 3,500 - 5,000 and Iraq at about 8,000-10,000. These are civilian deaths. Just as the 3,000 killed in 9/11 polarized us temporarily to seek revenge, the same will happen in Arab states bent on seeking revenge against us.
Gee, I guess Bush is guilty. The facts changed and his policies changed in response to changed circumstances. I guess you can bash him for this, but you first need to answer what happens to your opinions when the facts change. Me, I change my opinions according to the available facts. Perhaps you keep your opinions the same anyway.
You are apparently an unhappy person judging by the way you hate and think the worst of people that you don’t even know. You should let go of the hatred and the venom filled diatribes that flow from it. Hatred only makes you less than you would otherwise be.
At least consider the possibility that Bush, Rummy and Cheney and many others that you despise are good people going through life trying to do the best they can and making the best decisions they can limited by their abilities and the available information. They make good decisions and bad. That is to say, they are just like most of the rest of us.
I guess I don’t understand your point. Is it that Muslims hate those who kill other Muslims? If so, Hussein is the greatest mass murder of Muslims in history with estimates running from 500,000 to over 1,000,000. So apparently he would be the most hated by your logic. Close behind would be the terrorists in Iraq who are almost exclusively killing Iraqi civilians now. We, of course would be the most loved because of the thousands we saved in Kosovo from the Serbs.
You might want to rethink your point.
People don’t need a reason to hate. People hate because they are haters. It says much more about them than those they choose to hate. If the object of their hatred is removed, the hatred will simply transfer to another group for a different set of alleged offenses.
You aren’t understanding my point because you are too busy trying to make your point. I was responding to a post where someone gave a reason the Islamic world hates us. In my opinion, there are many people in Islamic states that don’t like it when we go into their countries and kill a bunch of civilians.
You’re wrong. People do need a reason to hate. That’s sort of a prerequisite. Now then, whether or not their hate is justifiable is another point entirely. A “reason” is a rallying cry for hatred. The haters may be there all the time, but a reason creates a groundswell and hate soon moves from the “haters” to ordinary people who take up the cause. Look at Nazi Germany, Serbia, Rwanda, Afghanastan and now Iraq.
Perhaps you keep your opinions the same anyway.
You are apparently an unhappy person judging by the way you hate and think the worst of people that you don’t even know. You should let go of the hatred and the venom filled diatribes that flow from it. Hatred only makes you less than you would otherwise be.
Wrong again Art. It’s not about hate of ‘people I don’t even know’ (like you’re tight with the Bushies), it’s about calling out hypocrisy and mendacity.
Unlike you, who apparently puts a finger to the prevailing winds to take a position, I’ve always maintained that US support for oppressive regimes around the world is simply unacceptable from a country that, as you claim, always fights for freedom. Seems you’re the one that’s always locked into the nationalistic jingoism.
Nice try on pulling the ‘hatred’ response that’s typical of the right wing in the US these days. Any dissent from the Bush Administration is hate speech. Come on Art, you’re always accusing others of never thinking out of the box and always accepting the conventional wisdom.
I guess I am a bit confused. In the second paragraph I put my finger in the wind to take a position. In the third paragraph I am a right wing defender of the Bush Administration.
The events of 9/11/01 changed the opinions and priorities of a lot of people, myself included. I don’t think that is putting my finger in the wind. If such an event leaves you unaffected, I admire your consistency.
You hate President Bush, Donald Rumsfield, Vice President Chenney and Ariel Sharon because those with influence have whipped up hysteria which tells you to hate these people. They orchestrated this hysteria to further their agenda. Your gray matter is the most important real estate you will ever own. Don’t let others use it unless they at least pay you rent.
I have plenty of problems with actions of the Bush administration, though not in areas related to national security. Spare me the mindless political labels.
I didn’t accuse you of hate speech. I made the obvious observation that you hate at least four people that you don’t even know. You will be well served by some self reflection as to why that is the case.
the assumed leader of Al Qaeda in Europe, Omar Bakri has declared that it was the first attack and that the next victim could be Italy…
he refers to 3 attacks
the train of death in Spain
the black smoke of death in Italy
the wind of death in the US…
that stinks…
You hate President Bush, Donald Rumsfield, Vice President Chenney and Ariel Sharon because those with influence have whipped up hysteria which tells you to hate these people. They orchestrated this hysteria to further their agenda.
I didn’t accuse you of hate speech. I made the obvious observation that you hate at least four people that you don’t even know. You will be well served by some self reflection as to why that is the case.
Wow, I hadn’t checked this thread for a day. It certainly turned spirited. This is one of those times I wish we were all sitting around a table at a Mexican restaurant eating chips and drinking Cokes while we discussed this instead of doing it over the Internet.
Very interesting debate.
I’d say let’s do that in El Paso, we are more likely to have good mexican food here than in Michigan 
.
Agreed.
El Paso works for me. I do have a problem with the Coke though. Isn’t beer healthier?
Copy and paste:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20040314/ap_on_re_eu/spain_bombings_9
I hope we get four more years to cut off the snake’s head once and for all.
Honestly, I can’t help thinking that something is going to happen in Athens…these guys are way behind schedule, security in Greece in notoriously bad, there will be athletes AND officials from all the countries muslim extremists hate…
I am truly worried that something bad is going to happen there.
…Olympics, perhaps… but, even extremist have a limited number of bullets (so to speak). Their resources will eventually become depleted (when I don’t know)… until then, they will use them more sparingly. And, for that reason I expect that Al Quada will see it’s successes and try to repeat them. What comes to mind is the political success they achieve in Spain (…provided that it is confirmed that Al Quada was the cause of the terrorist act in Spain …and it’s true political effect has yet to be determined).
With the recent events in Spain in mind, it is not a far stretch to note the upcoming Presidential election in the US. So, yes… the Olympics could be a target, but my logic seems to point in a direction that could provide for both potential political change and death/injury as a better way to extend it’s limited terrorist resources. That location and timing seems to point to the US and it’s upcoming election. How? I can’t even begin to image… my mind just doesn’t function that way.
FWIW Joe Moya
It looks very much like the bombing altered the election in Spain. That is very bad news. I think you are right Joe. How could they resist doing the same thing here around 11/1/04? If they have any ability to do it at all, you have to expect they will pull out all the stops.
There is nothing worse than letting terrorists think their methods are working.
We’re due for an election here in Australia sometime this year as well.
Hmmm, I’ll be at Athens.
Who else?
uli