Spain and Canada allow gay marriage

I almost hate to revive this subject, but reading this editorial from the LA Times the other day got me thinking: how is it possible that Spain, which is 90% Catholic, can pass a gay marriage law, while lawmakers in the U.S. are so influenced by religious groups? Seems strange.

EDITORIAL Reasonable Rights

July 6, 2005

The passage of gay marriage measures last week by Spain’s parliament and Canada’s House of Commons carries groundbreaking implications. Although Belgium and the Netherlands previously legalized gay marriage, the populations and global influence of Canada and Spain are greater. The newer laws are also more progressive, giving gay marriage the same full legal protection and adoption rights as traditional marriage.

The reasoning and demographics behind the two votes are just as significant.

In both nations, particularly in Roman Catholic Spain, religion plays an important part in citizens’ lives. Yet lawmakers in Spain and Canada alike made their decisions on the grounds that civil rights — the rights granted by the state — should not be trampled by religious beliefs, though churches, of course, may carry on as they see fit regarding their recognition of marriages. That reasoning, vital to protecting the rights of small groups from the will of larger ones, is increasingly absent from U.S. debates and decisions on gay marriage and other fraught issues, including abortion.

Canada’s population is divided over gay marriage, and its prime minister, Paul Martin, is a Roman Catholic who has stated his concerns on the issue. Yet Martin supported the measure for the right reasons. “In a nation of minorities,” he said, “it is important that you don’t cherry-pick rights. A right is a right.”

In Spain, where 90% of the population is Roman Catholic, the church came out swinging against new rights for gays, using the familiar line that gay marriage imperils the traditional institution of marriage. This has always been a difficult argument to follow logically. Assuming that marriage is the binding of two people in a committed relationship, possibly to create a family, gay marriage adds to the institution. Even granting most religions’ insistence that the two people must be of different genders, gay marriage does nothing to discourage or belittle heterosexual unions.

The church’s public arguments in Spain were undermined by its insistent stances against birth control and the use of condoms to halt the spread of HIV. Given Spaniards’ indifference to these church mandates regarding sexual behavior, Catholic leaders were unable to gain attention on the more divisive issue of gay marriage.

Now church leaders hint that Spanish civil officials who oppose gay marriage should refuse to conduct such ceremonies. Once again they misunderstand the nature of civil rights. The church retains every right to tell its priests what sort of marriages they can conduct. The state retains the right to tell its civil officials what marriages they must honor.

That Canada, and particularly Spain, can understand this division of rights so thoroughly should give pause to lawmakers in the United States.

The lobby groups in the US are out of control. This is yet another example of why I have decided to live in Canada even though I was born and raised in the US. The debate about this in Canada has been very interesting. I believe many sides have been heard from and the discussion has been very enlightening for all sides. This kind of discussion just can’t happen in the US on such hot-button topics and therefore no progress can be made.

Dawn

Sound bites run American politics versus an intelligent discourse.

Increased polarization of American politics.

Increased identification of Christian fundamentalists with right wing politics.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=126

The discussion persists in the US on many levels and just because you may not like the outcome you run away. That is what I call cowardice.

“…you run away…”

Pretty funny. You have no idea who I am or why I came to Canada. Very intelligent post.

Also, the “discussion” you insist is occurring really isn’t.

Dawn

You already stated that the out of control lobbyists and the lack of discussion in the US on hot button topics are examples of why you choose to live in Canada. Instead of working to make a change, you bail.

By the way, the Canadien lobbyist are very powerful.

So from that one short comment, you say that I’m running away and that I’m a coward. Way to jump to conclusions! You must be a load of fun when you get a few drinks in you!!

Dawn

Al are you hijacking another thread???

Ireland also has gay marriage legislation in the hopper. If ever there’s a country that, up until relatively recently, was run by the Catholic church its Ireland!

While the rest of the western world seems to be moving towards secularism in society the United States seems to be clinging to the notion that church edicts make good state laws.

“That is what I call cowardice”

No. Not it all.

It’s what’s called immigration. Or emigration if you’re talking about leaving.

Is every immigrant to the US who wasn’t happy in their country of origin a “coward” for “running away” from their country of birth.

Depends on the reason they emigrated. Economics and fears of persecution are good ones that have brought many to the USA. To leave merely because the political machinations and outcomes do not suit you is running away. Instead of staying and fighting the good fight through our representative government, the cowards leave.

"While the rest of the western world seems to be moving towards secularism in society the United States seems to be clinging to the notion that church edicts make good state laws. "

The US is entirely out of synch with the rest of the western world on many issues.

From my perspective on this issue as a Canuk - the legislation was rammed thru by the government. As far as I understand it’s close to a 50/50 split in the opinion polls so I do feel they may have been a bit hasty.

Personally however, if two gays or lesbians want to call themselves married or whatever it’s no skin off my nose.

I’m actually surprised that they want such a recognition given the higher failure rate of same sex unions. The divorce lawyers are going to love this legislation with all the new work it’s going to bring them.

“Instead of staying and fighting the good fight through our representative government, the cowards leave.”

For a start you know nothing of Dawn T’s reasons to move to Canada so you shouldn’t assume anything.

Most immigrants to the US (and Canada) were not being persecuted in their native countries. Some may have not agreed with the politics of where they were from but deciding not to stay does not make anybody a coward. Perhaps they simply left because they wanted to live somewhere else. Emmigrating to another country is anybody’s right.

“how is it possible that Spain, which is 90% Catholic, can pass a gay marriage law”

Brian 286 and Vitus may have something to say about this, but it just demonstrates how the influence of the Catholic church has waned in just a couple of generations. Most “Catholic” countries are now actually quite secular. The exceptions are those third world countries with the highest poverty and lowest education levels.

I’ve often wondered why those who purport to be defenders of the institution of marriage don’t seek to outlaw divorce instead of trying to stop people from actually entering into the institution.

A strange irony don’t you think?

At one time, particularly in Catholic countries, divorce was outlawed since church law was in effect. Even in parts of Canada such as Quebec which is mostly French-Canadian and Catholic this was in effect until about the 1950’s or so.

I’m not even sure if the Catholic even now recognizes divorce unless it’s by annulment. That really wouldn’t matter from a legal perspective because secular law takes precedence over church law.

“For a start you know nothing of Dawn T’s reasons to move to Canada…” Hey Mr. Chivalry, your defense of Dawn is admirable but weak. I think I do know at least some of the reasons she remains in Canada as she is on the record stating them. And I agree it is her right to live wherever she wants. If one cites dubious reasons for ones departure then one is left open to the charge. I could say good riddens or be one of the “Love it or leave it” crowd but I would rather see individuals stand and make a change rather than run.

By the way, you conveniently ignored the economic point I made regarding emigration and yes many, if not most, came here for opportunity and still do. Not to mention the freedoms that we enjoy.

If you really want to politicize this discussion you could refer to the Viet Nam era when something like 150,000 US draft evaders moved to Canada. You may call them cowards for leaving but for the most part we were quite happy to accept them in. Also for the most part, they all became fine tax paying contributing citizens. Your loss was our gain IMO.

They are cowards and you can tax the shit out of them as Canadiens love to do.

Brian 286 and Vitus may have something to say about this, but it just demonstrates how the influence of the Catholic church has waned in just a couple of generations. Most “Catholic” countries are now actually quite secular.

That’s entirely correct. Whether it’s a desirable or commendable situation is another question.

I’ve often wondered why those who purport to be defenders of the institution of marriage don’t seek to outlaw divorce instead of trying to stop people from actually entering into the institution.

A strange irony don’t you think?

Speaking, as usual, only for myself, I’d say it would be a strange irony if it were true. But it isn’t.

Does anybody really believe gay marriage would be taken seriously by *anyone *if divorce wasn’t rampant- and accepted?