Sometimes I feel a little funny when... (bike positions)

Triathlon Forum
1

There are a lot of photos on this forum of people ontheir bikes requesting positional commentary. I also get a few photos e-mailed to me every day asking for commentary on fit and position.

The majority of the ones I see need improvment. The majority of those, a lot of improvement.

Here’s the problem though: Especially on this forum, where everybody can read it, I am concerned about fostering this on-going “elitist” attitude that is occasionally mentioned. That leaves me with basically just saying, “Oh, nice bike, you look nice…” Which amounts to nothing more than kissing babies.

Inside my head a voice is screaming, “WTF!!! You need shorter reach, a shorter top tube, a different frame size, different cranks, different shoes and your clothes don’t even fit… blah, blah, blah”

To make matters worse, there isn’t anything I can really do about it anyway. If the person were here in our store, we could fix it. The nice thing about that is then the customer immediately feels the benefit of the fit being correct. They can also see the changes since we use digital photos to show them the changes we made to their fit. Unfortunately, I can’t do that over the Internet.

I like to look at the photos of people’s bike positions- we use them a lot for discussion here in the store and they are valuable for that. Mike O’Donnell, Mike Aderhold, Mark Trzeciak and the rest of us frequently have long discussions about these photos and the positions in them. They are a great resource for us- so keep them coming.

But, I feel bad about picking someone’s position apart on line. And I am afraid (especially now) of people saying “Demerly is a know-it-all, elitist, arrogant prick”.

And then there are the people who come in here having been “fit” at another bike shop. With bike fit the new cool thing, every bike shop is now a “triathlon bike fitter”. We see their work in here and what can we say? I haven;t seen one done correctly yet to be honest, and the customers wind up in here becasue they aren;t happy with the fit from the other place anyway- we had two of them in here Friday and one on Saturday. However, if we try to make constructive comments then we are the “elitist, know-it-all pricks”.

Guys, what the hell do I do? How do I handle this?

How do you tell someone their position needs work (even when they are telling ME that too!) when telling them their position needs work only makes them mad? It forces me into a position of making them feel good about their purchases and decisions even when they are wrong.

It is the bike shop equivalent of the question “Do I look fat in this?” There is no right answer. Damned if I agree, (since their position sucks) and damned if I don’t agree (then I’m arrogant).

Advice please from my trusted virtual advisors…

2

Hey Tom,

 I just sent you an email about that... Asking for you to comment my bike position... 

http://luiz.eng.fotoblog.uol.com.br/images/photo20040409144041.JPG 

We ask you opinion because we like your thoughts .... Keep sharing with us !!!!!! 

Thanks,
3

why not post this on your website, and tell people flat out what you just told the forum. You already give disclaimers for your opinions on products you sell, a fitting should be no different.

You’re gonna make some enemies regardless. screw them. you can’t be everyones friend, especially in the bike biz as i’m ure you know.

4

Yeah, that’s true Ben. It’s a bummer though.

Also, we walk a tight rope with other shops becasue some of the guys are our friends. That makes it tough. Imangine when a customer comes in with a position that needs a lot of work, has a lot of mistakes in it (pretty obvious, basic ones like the saddle far too low and the reach too long). We correct it and then they say, “Oh, I got fitted by so-and-so over at bike shop “A”…” Well, so-and-so happens to be a buddy of mine.

Big problem.

5

My perspective is that if someone is posting their position online and asking for advice, they already know that something is wrong, but don’t know what that something is. To say that their position seems fine is a disservice, but also it is next to impossible to give really good advice over the net unless they are so far out of whack that just about any change will work. For those who are “pretty good” or even “below average”, static photos don’t work well, those situations are best to say nothing meaningful, at most a bunch of maybe’s.

As to being elitist, don’t worry about it. I’d rather have my dealer be elitist and willing to give me their honest opinion than unassuming and too PC to let me know if I’m screwing up. But then, I have a uniqure relationship with my LBS in that I train with them for a couple of hours just about every day, hang out at the shop at lunch, I worked there the last 2 weekends to fill in for a vacationing staff member, etc.

6

It’s funny though- I agree with what you are saying…

But: It is as though people go from dealer to dealer trying to get he answer they WANT to hear, rather than the best, most educated, experienced answer.

It is tough when you feel like you can’t be honest with people becasue your livlihood depends, to a degree, on winning a daily popularity contest as opposed to just doing bike fit.

7

Unfortunalty for some of us (many of us?) we don’t have easy access to Knowledgeable bike fitters or even not that Knowledgeable bike fitters. In some cases there may not even be a local store that sell tri bikes.

For those of us who dont have easy one on one access the comments from you are invaluable even though we recognize the limitations of a “picture fit” it give us a starting point to experiment from. where else am I going to get input from the likes of Tom D. Dan Empfield, Gerard and the like. I for one really appreciate most of the comments.

There are others however, who comment much less respectfully and are clearly not as knowledgable those I could do with out.

8

I should throw in the fact that I (sincerely)thought that Francois’s position did actually look pretty darn good. If that had come from this store I woud have been pretty proud to call it my own. I think his saddle may have been a triffle high if I recall, but overall, we were impressed.

9

the constant barrage of requests is a reflection of the tremendous reputation that you enjoy and, more importantly, that you’ve earned. You are one of the most forthright, dedicated posters in terms of your insight and experience-based wisdom. People seek your advice because you give it with honesty and an affable air of professionalism. Emp’s articles are equally insightful, just a bit harder for most to digest–uhm, sorry Dan, but I was assured that there would be no mathematics in adulthood.

So, go easy on yourself, Tom. You’re wisdom and insight here is much appreciated by a great many of us (as is that which is occasionally shared by Ves, Girard and the Good Mr. Cobb). You (we) are your (our) hardest critic, and those who actually label you an elitist probably don’t understand the nature and importance of bike fit.

Scott

10

Tom, I can only speak definitively for myself but, on information I have surmised from other people’s comments on the forum, would like to say this. People on this forum ask your opinion on bike fit because they trust and value your opinion. If this were not the case you would not be asked for your opinion, and as I am sure you are aware we on this forum are not afraid to speak our minds and do not shy away from pulling punches.

But, I feel bad about picking someone’s position apart on line. And I am afraid (especially now) of people saying “Demerly is a know-it-all, elitist, arrogant prick”.

If this were an opinion held by any “twitchers” it has not been stated or, alluded to that would be the time for you to hold back. Personally, I understand, on a logical level, that a position analysis with only a static photograph to go on is of superficial value and merely a starting point for personal experiment, using your extensive experience, to apply within our physical and fitness limitations.

Guys, what the hell do I do? How do I handle this? If you are asked for your opinion on line, give it. If the individual doesn’t agree that is their decision, but you have offered that which they have requested based on your experience. If that experience is less than theirs they can feel smug, but it would be strange that they asked, would it not?

To make matters worse, there isn’t anything I can really do about it anyway. If the person were here in our store, we could fix it. The nice thing about that is then the customer immediately feels the benefit of the fit being correct. They can also see the changes since we use digital photos to show them the changes we made to their fit. Unfortunately, I can’t do that over the Internet.

As you are aware from my sign off I am based in England and so a trip into the shop is a little “inconvenient” for me, however if my finances allow I hope to visit for a fit during the summer, so you can surmise that I value your opinion and consider the effort and expense worthwhile .

Inside my head a voice is screaming, “WTF!!! You need shorter reach, a shorter top tube, a different frame size, different cranks, different shoes and your clothes don’t even fit… blah, blah, blah”

We are all adults here, if we ask we want to know! But your clothes don’t even fit could be a little personal.

In conclusion (God, this sounds like a business letter) Tom I would say keep helping us with your comments when we request it and help those that are fortunate to enough to be located close enough to Dearborn to be able to reap the rewards of your time and experience and don’t give up your trade until I have been able to pop in and get fitted on that Kaliber ;-0.

11

It is as though people go from dealer to dealer trying to get he answer they WANT to hear, rather than the best, most educated, experienced answer

Tom,

A good friend of mine is in the construction industry. There is a lot of pressure to do whatever the customer wants, since if you don’t do it, someone else will. He has flaat out refused work, because he views the end-product as his, not the customers. He knows that down the line, someone will ask who did a particular piece of work. H only wants his name associated with high quality work, not half assed stuff that isn’t up to code.

13

Tom,

As one of the guys who posted a position feedback post, I was looking for criticism and feedback. I had some ideas about my position before and after I looked at the picture that I took, and was looking to see them either confirmed or shot to hell. I’m planning to get a new bike next year, and when I do I’m going to have a professional fit for the first time. I may have to go to SoCal to get it, since I don’t have a lot of confidence in any of the LBS’s around here to do a good tri-specific fit.

thanks,

Ed

14

I do look at clothes and shoes because that is part of bike fit. I fit a customer on Friday who was wearing bike shorts that were too large for him. He was complaining of saddle discomfort and his wrinkly shorts may have been a contributing factor. He told me he had lost quite a bit of weight recently accounting for his loose shorts.

A woman on Saturday had shoes that were so much too large for her the toe box had a big, buckled wrinkle in it when she did up the velcro. She complained of foot problems. I did point out her shoe fit to her and showed her how my cycling shoes fit, which I often demonstrate to customers using my own equipment.

But this is a perfect example HH, you say you wouldn’t visit my store. Now I’ve alientated you…

See what happens?

15

Dear Tom,

You ARE elite. There’s nothing you can do about that, except strive to stay there.

It’s easy to pick out elitist attitudes in this forum. I think you come across to me as anything BUT elitist. In fact, you seem very grounded…grounded to the point of being downright soiled! You certainly shouldn’t worry about that any more. I’d vote for you to continue to operate just as you have…wouldn’t change a thing.

Thanks for all the time you spend dispensing advice (at least, when it comes to triathlons!), it really does help dummies like me.

17

Tom,

As others have said, you are asked for an opinion because what you say has credibility. The one poster was right on when he said to tell customers you have a different approach and some ideas to make it work for an individual; that way you don’t offend another fitter and maintain the credibilty of that customer. You have been truthful without cutting the legs out from under someone.

When I came to your shop I was looking for feedback based on some changes in the last year. You and Mike worked with me giving me some information and even taking the time to explain alternative approaches (the forced adaptation vs incremental). I made some choices - took the new seat, the shim and a lower postition (not as low as you want me ;o) but don’t want to spend the money to take care of the super wide base bar. No ridicule, just advise based on your knowledge and experience.

The other thing is, there are a number of people that will pick your brains because the service is free. The danger is that if someone makes changes based on your input, can they now say they were fit by Tom D? If they screw it up and attribute it to you, then there is a possibilty that your rep will suffer. By being VERY general, you maintain your rep and someone doesn’t get a “free” lunch at your expense.

By the way, since you have people coming from around the world as well as across the country to be fitted by you, you are considered elite in a lot of peoples opinion. That is different than elitist, because you are open to discussion vs the elitist who says there is only my way.

Keep up the good work, calling it as you see it. You are educating those of us who will listen and who are willing to learn.

Larry

18

I will take good advice anytime, anywhere. I remember the time you pointed out I was wearing my helmet wrong. I’m sure I looked like a big goober, but who cares! I learned something that day as well as just about every time I’ve been in your shop – whether it be by way of advice to me or just by eavesdropping on you or your guys’ conversations with others. Isn’t that what this forum’s all about?

Okay – back to my taxes. Went cheap this year and fired the accountant . . . . bad decision . . . .

Cheers,

Amy

19

Tom,

May I make a suggestion? Preface your critique with the disclaimer that a position/fitting is not static. This can change over time for a variety of reasons/factors as most of us know. Increase or decrease in flexibility, injury, growth, age(shrinking), etc. It is also not uncommon for someone to evaluate proper fit each season (professionals especially). Why should a cyclist/triathlete expect that a fitting is for life? A road bike and a tri bike will be completely different. If one is recently fitted for their first tri type bike, then there is a period of time over which one must become accustomed/comfortable with this “new” position and the muscles that are utilized in this “new” position. What felt good or acceptable during the initial fitting may be discovered over time to be incorrect/unacceptable/uncomfortable. I have read threads on this very forum where you yourself have mentioned that you were going out to try this new position (straight bars) and that you expected it would take a few rides to get it dialed in. Should you really expect any less or more of those seeking your advice/services?

Many people respect your knowledge and experience. Many of those same people pay for your services/opinion/fitting. Be honest with them and fair. Don’t be condescending. Try to help them, that is why they came to you in the first place even though they may have started somewhere else. They are a potential future customer. Let your experience and knowledge sell your service and business. What you can do for someone to improve their experience or enjoyment of their/your sport. Don’t try to tear them down by informing them they went to the wrong place first (criticize your competitor friends).

Cycling/triathlon is a journey. We don’t all start at the same store, nor do we all follow the same road or pass the same places. But at times our paths cross. At those times there are opportunities to have great impact/meaningful interactions that can profoundly affect how we feel about that someone or how that someone affected how I feel about “my” sport.

Now go out there and make a difference (positive impact) and quit whining.

20

Tom, I’m sure this isn’t news to you, but you are going to lose customers once in a while because they don’t like your answers. On the other hand, you will lose far more customers if word ever gets out that you don’t always give your honest opinion. Folks want a known quantity. So what if a guy or gal walks out of your store. . .they walk out knowing where you stand on the subject. Thats far more than can be said for too many retailers these days.

You bring up good points about all these folks requesting comment on their positions. My biggest gripe is that photos ALWAYS lie to some extent, even when well done like madaussie’s latest requests. There simply is no substitute for being able to look at someone from several angles, put them on a trainer and watch them spin, check power if possible, and, MOST importantly, get feedback through questions and answers. The worst of these requests use photos with extreme short or long focal lengths and from some weird angle. The best that can usually be said is. . .“Wow, you sure know nice bike equipment when you see it. That CarbonioTitanolo is one of the best bikes out there. . .too bad you look like a toad humping a rock on it. We can probably make it fit with this 18cm, -40 deg titanium stem that for some reason has been in the parts display case for 20 years.”

21

Well,

I read through the posts on this thread over the last couple hours and I have to say these things:

  1. Thank you very much.
  2. You guys offer very good advice and I appreciate it.
  3. You made me feel a little better, maybe more than a little.

I hope the things we do in here really do help people enjoy their bikes and our sport more. I hope we make a contribution to that.

Thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful insights guys. I really appreciate it. Ben is right- perhaps I should quite whining.

Tom.

22

Personally Tom, I like a strongly worded opinion with no pulled punches. If I posted a pic of my very first (real) tri-fit, you would have been fighting to come up with something good to say about it. “Nice shorts” maybe. I went to Greg at Tri-Action here in Vancouver because he came recommended by SimpleS (another Slowtwitcher) and his main comment was “Ummmm… I *think *I see what you were trying to do…” - then he fixed it.

People post/email you pics because they want specific feedback from a professional triathlon fitter (or in the case of this forum, one or two real pros and a tonne of armchair pro’s). They aren’t likely looking to have their egos stroked and if they are, they sure came to the wrong place. They generally know something isn’t right, or may simply be looking for ways to refine an already good position.

The primary function of this forum and the reason that most of us originally came here, was because it is a wealth of information, concentrated like nowhere else on the internet. Yes, there are other excellent resources - but there’s only one SlowTwitch. Now we stay because we like the “community” - but there are many who aren’t interested in that stuff and simply want to know which wheels are the lightest, etc.

As a business person you need to decide which is potentially more damaging to you - to be viewed as an elitist know-it-all prick by a certain percentage of the population and therefore lose the business of either sensitive or newer cyclists/triathletes, or to be viewed as someone who doesn’t really care/take interest in triathlon bike fitting, and lose a chunk of business by those seeking the most optimal human-bicycle interface possible. It seems to me that given the nature of your shop, the second group are your bread and butter.

When I seek professional advice on any level from home renovation and medical, to athletic performance and highly technical computing queries, the quality of the information and pedigree of the person whose advice I am seeking is paramount. I could care less if (s)he is the nicest guy/gal ever, or a raging asshole. I simply want the best information/skills out there.

I for one like the Tom D who tells it like it is, and would mourn his death if you turned into a “gee, that looks swell” type of fit commentator.