Someone trying to explain america?

The reason why I came to this forum was trying to understand America. I live in Germany and from what I know about the last four years, its hart to understand, why anybody would just consider to reelect GWB. Thus I couldn`t understand that the election was going to be close and in the end that Bush has even won. I dont want to offend anybody. Just looking for missing information.

Best I start with a sort of european point of view. I Dont expect to convince anybody by this. But hopefully it will make you understand my lack of understanding. Perhaps I may even show those, who always complain about the condescending Europeans that we are not. We (the majority of europeans) really do not understand.

I start with 9/11. Please do not forget, that all of us were horrified by the attacks in NY and Washington. The whole of europe - including “old Europe” - was standing behind the US. As far as I remember no one (at least not many) opposed the war against Afghanistan. Quite obviously that was were the terrorists were hidden and supported.

The wind changed when the Bush started to point towards Iraq. Why should we go to Iraq? There`s no need to argue that SH is an asshole, a dictator and mass murder. But we didnt see him as immediate thread and the job in Afghanistan was (and is) not yet finished. OBL is not caught. The taliban are out of power, but rather hiding than definitely defeated, as shown by the increasing number of attacks in Afghanistan. The situation still is not stable.

The first reason mentioned for going to Iraq was the existence of WMD. I remember Collin Powel speaking at the UN showing his proves. All of them turned out to be faked. We didnt only feel, that the Bush-government lied to the world, we also felt humiliated. The proves were partly faked very badly - did Bush and his guys really believe us to buy that? Of course I cant prove that GWB knew the truth. But if he had been curious to know it he would have known.

When the proves didnt hold, the burden of prove was turned around and suddenly it was on SH to prove that he doesnt have WMD. Its impossible to prove nonexistence. Every possible prove can be doubted.

All experts doubted the existence of WMD. For example Scott Ritter, member of the Republican Party and precursor of Blix as weapon inspector said clearly that he doesnt believe in their existence - and even if they should exist they would have been too old to do any harm. In his final report to the UN Blix said, he did not find any sign of WMD. SH was increasingly cooperating (due to the military pressure I admit). They would only need a few more weeks to eliminate the remaining uncertainties.

When the didnt convince, the second reason for war was a connection between SH and al Qaida. There were no proves for this connection and it didnt sound very reliable. SH is known as not very religious. He has been using religion for his matters now and than, but the only thing he really believes in was himself. Doesnt sound like a good base for a relationship with fundamentalistic religious terrorists, does it?

Finally the reason for war was to bring down SH`s government.

It seemed that Bush was decided to go into Iraq and just changed the reasons hoping to find one that might fit.

Another reason to be against the war was that many europeans were afraid off its consequences. We did not believe the US-Army would be welcomed as liberators. We did not believe in Bushs domino theory of bringing democracy into one arabian country and thus spreading it into all off them. Bush never said, how after the war he would install democracy in Iraq in the first place. We rather thought of the Iraq as an arabian problem that has to be solved (with our help if possible) by the arabian countries. We were afraid, that invading an arabian country, the Iraq (and specially calling that Invasion a crusade) would tighten the clash of cultures and thus help OBL recruit more followers.

Another reason for Bush to lose any sympathy was the way he behaved towards his european partners - those who were still fighting together with the US-Army in Afghanistan but opposed to war against Iraq. It was not only that we were offended. We were really scared by that with_us_or_with_the_terrorists attitude. How can someone be president of the USA, the last remaining superpower, how can someone be chief commander of the worlds largest and most powerful army, who denies (or isnt able) to see any shade of gray, who only knows black and white.

Another point hard to understand is Bushs attitude of being chosen and guided by god. I know most of you do believe in God. Please try to understand how it sounds in the ears of someone who does not (or not strongly) believe in God, if the chief commander of the worlds largest army, just about to start war, when asked about advises he might have got from his father - expresident and proven expert in fighting against Iraq - answers he rather took guidance from a higher father. To me it sounded like I don`t need advice, I rather do a prayer. Can you imagine how scary that is?

Sorry if I messed up the quote above. I only know the German translation and had to retranslate back to English.

The war started and SH was brought down quickly. But instead of democracy it was anarchy brought into Iraq. Plundering everywhere. Irreplaceable documents of worlds history are gone for ever. Even the weapon depots were not properly secured. About 1 1/2 years after declaring the war to be over the situation is far from stable but getting increasingly out off control. The world did not become safer but more dangerous. There have been no proves for Iraq hosting terrorists before the war. Now there are many terrorists inside Iraq. The way GWB leads the war against terrorism is the best help OBL could have dreamed of for recruiting new terrorists.

Still I forgot to talk about Guantanamo and Abu Graib. Here IMO the USA betrayed everything it should stand for - constitutional legality, human rights, human dignity, modern zivilisation… If war against terrorism shall be successful, than it has to be not only about eliminating terrorists but also about eliminating the reasons of terrorism. Even if you dont pity the prisoners of Guantanamo and Abu Graib (many of them are prisoners for no reason except of being at the wrong place at the wrong time) those incidents have not only damaged the credit of the USA (and its allieds) but also complicated the war against terrorism.

You see from my point of view - and that is quite mainstream in Europe - GWB has failed in every way he possibly could. Please help me to understand what I`m missing. How could this guy be reelected though?

Cheers Torsten

Thank you. It doesnt help me to undertand where those fiftysomethingmillion votes came from though. My point is not to argue about the Iraq war. I want to understand, how that guy could be reelected, how my view differes from that an those who voted for GWB.

Sheers Torsten

I can’t help you much, I’m still trying to understand why I wasn’t born in Europe.

How? Ive made up my mind about the GWB government and I know my point of view. What im asking is for someone to show ma the story from another point of view that might help me understand 51% of America.

Cheers Torsten

I’m a Canadian but has lived in both the USA and Europe. I wouldn’t vote for GWB if my life depended on it. 48% of Americans feel the same way.

The best advice I can give you is don’t even try to understand the others. They defy all rational thinking.

That speaks of volumes about yourself.

What’s the matter, Tibbs, you don’t think that anyone who disagrees with CG is, by definition, an idiot?

Now, now Tibbsy. Morally smug Europeans and Euro-wannabes are all the rage, didn’t you get the email?

I can’t believe I lived over there and never caught on to the superiority complex. Well, I DID catch a little of it in France :wink:

We want a refund of all that Marshall Plan money AND all the $$ we wasted on the Berlin Airlift, too. Small bills, non-sequential, and made out to me personally.

I’ll send my P.O. Box in a minute.

K

Why cant you just anwer a simple question? I didnt insult anybody. I just wrote down in cronological order what happened on war against terrorism and how I view it. I even tried to keep emotions out of it as much as I could. All Im asking is for an opposite point of view that might help me understand.

I could easely stick to German bords and complain. But that doesnt help me understand. The USA is the last remaining superpower and its politics effect all other nations. Why than shouldnt I try to understand whats going on?

Cheers Torsten

We are a great country that makes horrible mistakes from time to time. As you can see from this board and in the election results many of us Americans can’t even understand why we are doing what we are doing.

We want a refund of all that Marshall Plan money

Did you read the story a few weeks back about the money we gave Germany to rebuild after WWII? Fascinating. They still have it. All of it, plus some interest. Seems they were unsure of their status after the war, and weren’t clear about whether they were expected to eventually pay it back. So they used it to rebuild, often by making small loans, which individual Germans repaid, so the fund has grown over the years. It was used to get East Germany back on it’s feet after the wall fell, too. They still give out loans to develop the economy from the original principal. Amazing.

WE’RE NOT SORRY
that George W. Bush is our President! **A majority of us went out and voted on Nov. 2nd for President Bush. ** Now build a bridge, and get over it. http://www.werenotsorry.com/images/PSArt/iamnotsorry.jpg What’s the mistake. We hold these things every four years. You’d think that most of you would realize that by now. Lord, I didn’t hear all this screeching when Clinton got in in '92 with only 43% of the vote to Bush’s 37% and Perot’s 18%. After all he never got a simple majority in either of his two elections and I didn’t see Republicans overwhelming website servers trying, oh-so-desparately, to find another country to go live in. Pantywaists and whiners, I’m starting to believe. Seriously. K

I had heard of that one. I’m just causing trouble is all, right now. I figure they’ve paid us back in spades with all that wonderful cuisine and those German supermodels and Katarina Witt and whatnot. :wink:

K

you have already said they are wring so really I just think your wanting spit out your opinion and start an argument.

I didnt say they are wrong. How can I if I dont even know how they feel about all thous issues I mentioned. I dont want to start an argument. I just want to listen and try to understand.

Cheers Torsten

The only beef I really have with Europeans is that they can harbor and gnaw at the least little thing that happened in some civil war 900 years ago, but when we ask for a little “got your back” in times like these, they start screaming and asking us how long we should expect them to be grateful to us for helping out in WWII?

It’s just perplexing to me, sometimes. :wink:

K

I just want to listen and try to understand.

What’s hard to understand? The majority of American voters disagree with you about who would be the better president. Why is that a big mystery to people? You have your opinion, 51% of American voters disagree with it. That’s all.

– I could easely stick to German bords and complain. But that doesnt help me understand. The USA is the last remaining superpower and its politics effect all other nations. Why than shouldnt I try to understand whats going on?

GWB couldn’t give a clear explanation in 3 debates and a year of campaigning so I don’t know how you expect people around here to.

The bottom line is that it just comes down to quite a few people here were comfortable placing their trust in GWB to lead this country. The different reasons could be debated all day (and has been for the last few months) but I don’t think it would ever really make sense to you.

Many who voted for him didn’t think he had done a great job but they didn’t have the courage to change leadership in mid-stream. A great deal of this had to do with the weaknesses of Kerry. A candidate with less exploitable weaknesses and I think we would have given Bush the boot. When they looked at the lesser of two evils, they decided that it was “safer” to go with Bush.

Thanks Big K,

That was a very civil and well reasoned post.

I know…sometimes I dazzle my ownself with the clarity and power of my expositions about literally everything under the sun. :wink: I just wanted to play the jingoistic ugly American for the boy. It’s probably what he thinks we are, anyway.

K

– What’s the mistake. We hold these things every four years. You’d think that most of you would realize that by now. Lord, I didn’t hear all this screeching when Clinton got in in '92 with only 43% of the vote to Bush’s 37% and Perot’s 18%. After all he never got a simple majority in either of his two elections and I didn’t see Republicans overwhelming website servers trying, oh-so-desparately, to find another country to go live in. Pantywaists and whiners, I’m starting to believe. Seriously. K

Actually the mistake I was referring to was Iraq, but I think by now I know where you stand on that as well.

I really wished I lived in your world where everything was just white sandy beaches. :slight_smile:

Uh, yeah, that’s what I was trying to say, just with less words.

CG is Cerveloguy.

**I really wished I lived in your world where everything was just white sandy beaches. :slight_smile: **

It’s too expensive out here. We disagree on Iraq. Having had the experience of living and serving over in that part of the world, I’m sure you can at least see where I’m coming from. Some days I’m really of the mind that we should have invaded the whole Middle East, killed all their leaders, and forced the population to covert to Christianity.

Then the nurse brings me thorazine, and all is right again.

You’re going to believe what you want to believe, and I’m going to believe what I believe. Until the cogency of your argument is sufficient enough to sway me, we’ll keep on disagreeing about this matter. Apparently I landed in with almost 58 million other voters who saw something in Bush, or something in Kerry, for that matter, that made them stay with the Prez.

They didn’t vote for the guy out of some lack of courage, though. That’s yet another fantasy that libs seem to be conjuring up to explain away an election in which a President got a majority, not a plurality, of the popular and electoral votes AND increased his party’s numbers in the Senate and House of Representatives, which is something no Democrat since Roosevelt has done, and certainly not Bill Clinton.

In fact, most political experts tie the congressional Republican resurgence to the '94 mid-terms, when the Dems lost control of the House for the first time in decades. If the Tip O’Neill saying about all politics being local is true, then even at the grassroots level the Dems got it stuck to them. No easy way for them to explain it, I imagine.

K