Sodium - not sure I get it yet

Triathlon Forum
1

I know sodium intake in an IM will vary by individual – rookie question is: at Whistler last weekend, I was pretty solidly caked in salt on my race outfit, hat, face…looking around, I’d say maybe more than the average person on the course. On the run, one spectator went out of her way to yell " keep those salts up!“. I was tracking about 700 mgs per hour during the race. A lot of salt on my race suit etc indicates I’m losing a lot / sweating a lot, but question is, does that mean I have a " high” salt content in my sweat and likely need to take more in during the race? Or could it also mean that I was taking in a lot of salt and my body was getting rid of the excess the way it could (from sweating)? Sodium/salt/electrolytes continues to be one of those X factors in long distance tri’s that I still don’t quite get…

Thanks!

2

Neither, but here’s some reading.

3

Neither, but here’s some reading.

If you read the article please take note of this.

Jonathan Toker, the Slowtwitch Science Editor, is an elite-level runner-triathlete who hails from Canada and lives in Southern California. He received a Ph.D. in organic chemistry from The Scripps Research Institute in 2001. Jonathan invented the SaltStick brand.

I do wonder if the original post was a plant from a troll.

http://www.trisports.com/saltstick.html

$29 a pop.

The moderators should remove such sales posts, where people selling things place adverts disguised as scientific advice.

4

I did IMC and was caked in tons of salt too. The thing is … I never usually have much salt on me at all, if any. Weird.

5

Did you cramp a lot at Whistler? Did you suffer a bit drop in performance at some point that you can’t reliably attribute to lack of calories of poor pacing/fitness? If not, then I wouldn’t worry about stuff like this unless it becomes a problem. There are enough other things to worry about as it is.

6

Did you cramp a lot at Whistler? Did you suffer a bit drop in performance at some point that you can’t reliably attribute to lack of calories of poor pacing/fitness? If not, then I wouldn’t worry about stuff like this unless it becomes a problem. There are enough other things to worry about as it is.

Would messed up salt balance create the things you describe? I did whistler as my first IM and plowed into a brick wall at mile 92 on the bike. Had been taking in ~320 calories an hour, and alternating between perform and water for hydration. Basically limped through the rest of the race after that and took 1.5 hours longer than projected time (was on pace to hit projected time up to that point).

Been trying to figure out what happened, I’ve been training in texas so was heat acclimated to the rising temps at that part during race and had been nailing nutrition and pacing to that point. Only thing was once I started the run I noticed my pants were all sorts of caked in salt rings. White top so couldn’t tell there. It was literally a 180 within a few minutes so want to prevent in future.

7

A lot of salt on my race suit etc indicates I’m losing a lot / sweating a lot, but question is, does that mean I have a " high" salt content in my sweat and likely need to take more in during the race? Or could it also mean that I was taking in a lot of salt and my body was getting rid of the excess the way it could (from sweating)? Sodium/salt/electrolytes continues to be one of those X factors in long distance tri’s that I still don’t quite get…

What, in any way, was the heat like in your run up to the event?

8

Typically cool when I train in YYC and I train in the morning to keep peace in the house - so yes, always a struggle to adapt to the heat on race day when the run occurs during the hottest part of the day. I did also cramp quite a bit on the run but after digesting the posts on this forum, I am loathe to attribute it to sodium intake - if I distill the
cumulative knowledge base on ST it would seem to indicate that I was just not trained up enough for my output on race day (ie not enough sweat equity in the legs…)

9

Neither, but here’s some reading.

If you read the article please take note of this.

Jonathan Toker, the Slowtwitch Science Editor, is an elite-level runner-triathlete who hails from Canada and lives in Southern California. He received a Ph.D. in organic chemistry from The Scripps Research Institute in 2001. Jonathan invented the SaltStick brand.

I do wonder if the original post was a plant from a troll.

http://www.trisports.com/saltstick.html

$29 a pop.

The moderators should remove such sales posts, where people selling things place adverts disguised as scientific advice.Did you happen to notice the date the article was published? I would say you have done a better job of advertising that product than anyone else, so no need for moderator, you can just delete your post :wink:

10

what I learned in college a long time ago was that heat acclimation happens over a week or so and that one consequence is less salty sweat. A lot of us in the cooler climates never get a whole hot week, so I suspect we are inefficient sweaters.

I have no clue how much salt one needs. I ended up in a coma ion a long stage race in Costa Rica from drinking too much water and not taking enough salt. Sleeping through the last 2 stages impacted my GC position a lot. I guess you can die from it.

11

fire me a note off line and i’ll see if i can help!

i was a guinea pig for my buddy who got his PhD in Na supplementation… he’s now at GSSI.

12

On the IMTalk podcast, they have had a professor on there who is a 9.xx IM athlete.

He specializes in this area, and to sum his conclusions up: there’s no need for salt intake.

Your blood is high in salt already (much more than the concentration in energy drinks, so they effectively dilute you). He did tests on blood before and after long races, and found no change in the salt concentration.

If you have low salt level, it takes a long time for additional salt to be absorbed, longer than a race, so again intake of salt will not really help.

His findings regarding cramping / salt was also interesting - why cramp occurs, he said no one is sure. Why salt helps is simply a neural reaction the brain has to salt on the tongue. It causes cramped muscles to relax.

He himself takes water and sugars / carbs in the race, never salt or electrolytes.

I found the interview really interesting, as did a lot of people who wrote into the show after.

Can’t remember the name, but it was within the last 18 months.

13

Interesting - thanks Bluefever. I know sodium replacement is a polarizing topic. Think Rappstar has indicated positive returns from increased sodium replacement during competition. I guess that’s why it’s so fascinating – nobody argues that you need to take in calories during a race (quantity will vary of course), but despite finishing an IM absolutely caked in salt (which leached out of my body), some say I should take in more sodium, and some say I shouldn’t bother taking any! Feeling more and more like the only way to “find the solution” is to self-experiment and see what works best. The mystery endures!

14

what I learned in college a long time ago was that heat acclimation happens over a week or so and that one consequence is less salty sweat. A lot of us in the cooler climates never get a whole hot week, so I suspect we are inefficient sweaters.

I have no clue how much salt one needs. I ended up in a coma ion a long stage race in Costa Rica from drinking too much water and not taking enough salt. Sleeping through the last 2 stages impacted my GC position a lot. I guess you can die from it.

Read Dr Tim Noakes.

15

what I learned in college a long time ago was that heat acclimation happens over a week or so and that one consequence is less salty sweat. A lot of us in the cooler climates never get a whole hot week, so I suspect we are inefficient sweaters.

I have no clue how much salt one needs. I ended up in a coma ion a long stage race in Costa Rica from drinking too much water and not taking enough salt. Sleeping through the last 2 stages impacted my GC position a lot. I guess you can die from it.

Read Dr Tim Noakes.

thanks, i found this it’s an interesting take on hydration.

http://www.outsideonline.com/blog/outdoor-adventure/tim-noakes-on-the-serious-problem-of-overhydration-in-endurance-sports.html

16

On the IMTalk podcast, they have had a professor on there who is a 9.xx IM athlete.

He specializes in this area, and to sum his conclusions up: there’s no need for salt intake.

Your blood is high in salt already (much more than the concentration in energy drinks, so they effectively dilute you). He did tests on blood before and after long races, and found no change in the salt concentration.

If you have low salt level, it takes a long time for additional salt to be absorbed, longer than a race, so again intake of salt will not really help.

His findings regarding cramping / salt was also interesting - why cramp occurs, he said no one is sure. Why salt helps is simply a neural reaction the brain has to salt on the tongue. It causes cramped muscles to relax.

He himself takes water and sugars / carbs in the race, never salt or electrolytes.

I found the interview really interesting, as did a lot of people who wrote into the show after.

Can’t remember the name, but it was within the last 18 months.

I’ve seen the same sort of thing quoted in studies. They also looked at pickle juice, and said that while it did help with cramps, it was not because of the electrolyte content, as the cramps subsided before the pickle juice would have had time to digest. Which pretty much goes with what you said above, that they believe it is a neural reaction.
I’ve never found any benefit to taking electrolytes during a race, and all of the real studies have failed to show any benefit. Your body does a pretty good job of regulating blood levels. If you were -that- depleted of them, you’d likely be getting cramps all over your body, not just legs, etc. It’s a lot of marketing IMHO.

17

there’s no need for salt intake.

Why salt helps is simply a neural reaction the brain has to salt on the tongue. It causes cramped muscles to relax.

That sounds like a contradiction to me. It’s certainly a benefit to get a “neural reaction” that prevents cramping.

18

there’s no need for salt intake.

Why salt helps is simply a neural reaction the brain has to salt on the tongue. It causes cramped muscles to relax.

That sounds like a contradiction to me. It’s certainly a benefit to get a “neural reaction” that prevents cramping.Perhaps similar to the benefit you get from a carbohydrate mouth wash. You don’t need to ingest or intake the salt to gain the benefit.

19

Perhaps similar to the benefit you get from a carbohydrate mouth wash. You don’t need to ingest or intake the salt to gain the benefit.

Right, I made that same suggestion in another salt thread a few months ago. I sometimes suffer from cramps so next time I’m going to try to (ug!) chew on an electrolyte pill instead of swallowing it as an n=1 experiment.

Kind of like the old days when athletes used uncoated salt tablets instead of the gelatin capsules most use today. Maybe the salt taste is what worked? Either that or just placebo.

20

Did you cramp a lot at Whistler? Did you suffer a bit drop in performance at some point that you can’t reliably attribute to lack of calories of poor pacing/fitness? If not, then I wouldn’t worry about stuff like this unless it becomes a problem. There are enough other things to worry about as it is.

Would messed up salt balance create the things you describe? I did whistler as my first IM and plowed into a brick wall at mile 92 on the bike. Had been taking in ~320 calories an hour, and alternating between perform and water for hydration. Basically limped through the rest of the race after that and took 1.5 hours longer than projected time (was on pace to hit projected time up to that point).

Been trying to figure out what happened, I’ve been training in texas so was heat acclimated to the rising temps at that part during race and had been nailing nutrition and pacing to that point. Only thing was once I started the run I noticed my pants were all sorts of caked in salt rings. White top so couldn’t tell there. It was literally a 180 within a few minutes so want to prevent in future.

I have no idea if that’s what did it for you. Were you muscles spasming or did you just slow down?

Sounds more like a bonk than anything else. I know you were taking in quite a bit of calories but I have no idea how hard you were going. You’ll have to judge that compared to your training. But I’d say that going too hard, pacing poorly (i.e. too many surges) or not being properly able to absorb the calories your were taking is a more likely culprit if a bonk is what you experienced. I would try to see if you can reproduce it in training. If you can, try different nutrition, try salt, try whatever.

For me, salt has no effect on blowing up. (I can do that no problem!) But it has 100% effectiveness on preventing cramping. And on any warm day if I ride long enough and forget my salt pills, I ***will ***start to cramp after 60-70 miles, no matter how easily I go. Yet we all know people who seem to never cramp and take no salt. I can’t speak to that except to say you have to experiment. Use literature and this forum as a place to seek out likely causes but eventually, you must try things out and just see.

If I had I based my reaction to my cramping problem solely on Pub-Med studies or Slowtwitch posts, I’d have given up long-course stuff years ago. Instead I experimented and quickly found solution.