…just watched the NBC coverage. OK maybe those 16 riders weren’t running as close as the TDF peleton and just within inches of breaking the rules, but they were definately getting aero benefit runnikng that close to each other. Hellriegel takes off and he has the aero pack behind him working as a group. No wonder he fried on the run.
“So tell me those 16 guys weren’t drafting”
Okay,
They weren’t drafting. Oh woops, my fingers were crossed. I got a lot more respect for Stadler right now, as opposed to Reid.
… I vote drafting… and poor drafting technique at best… If the rules are going to not call that drafting, just make it draft legal and get over it.
Joe Moya
kinda sad when the narrator is mentioning the advantage the group is enjoying…
i think they should expand the required distances front to back…
It was a little depressing, but it’s still better than the good old days, like in '95 when Allen sat at the back of a REAL pack for 112 miles, and Hellriegel blasted off into a REAL wind.
Norm didn’t have it too rough, he just got outrun.
Back to the 10m rule, I hope.
IMHO -
The jury is still out. The 10 meter rule is still in effect, but the pros stagger, not ride right. So, even though the front two can ride side by side, 6 feet apart, everyone else behind must stagger left, right, left, right, all 10 meters behind and 2 meters to the side of the one in front. I personally see a big difference between a TDF peleton, and a bunch of riders that have big spacings between them.
I don’t trust the camera shots they showed - the lens can really give a distorted view. I do think that there’s something visually impressive about a long-distance camera shot that shows riders filling the frame both left and right, compared to single file. Because it looks like there’s a drafting advantage, there’s gotta be, right? And as for the commentator talking about this pack’s advantage, I’ll treat it as just another semi-informed opinion.
For now, it’s a pro-only rule that was written by the pros themselves. In the absence of any wind tunnel tests that measure the difference between single line 10 meter spacing, and staggered 2 meter by 10 meter spacing, I’ll wait to hear the opinions of those most in the know - the pros that were in that Hawaii group. Has anyone seen anything written by any of them?
I talked to guys in the group, it was a bigger advantage than the straight 10m.
It works much better with smaller pro fields and in conditions w/o crosswinds, I thought it was fine at IMCDA.
As for the pros making their own rules, Francios is a pro, I’m a pro, and I assure you that we had about as much say in the rule making process as we have on what the 9th Circuit Court hands down.
The 9th Circuit opinion might look like this…given that all 16 riders started the event…and 15 of the 16 riders finished the event…first place prize money shall be awarded to all 15 who finished. Furthermore the organizers of this event shall pay 1 million dollars in pain and suffering to all who competed. No future events shall be allowed without providing air conditioners to entrants and spectators.
IMHO -
The jury is still out. The 10 meter rule is still in effect, but the pros stagger, not ride right. So, even though the front two can ride side by side, 6 feet apart, everyone else behind must stagger left, right, left, right, all 10 meters behind and 2 meters to the side of the one in front. I personally see a big difference between a TDF peleton, and a bunch of riders that have big spacings between them.
I don’t trust the camera shots they showed - the lens can really give a distorted view. I do think that there’s something visually impressive about a long-distance camera shot that shows riders filling the frame both left and right, compared to single file. Because it looks like there’s a drafting advantage, there’s gotta be, right? And as for the commentator talking about this pack’s advantage, I’ll treat it as just another semi-informed opinion.
For now, it’s a pro-only rule that was written by the pros themselves. In the absence of any wind tunnel tests that measure the difference between single line 10 meter spacing, and staggered 2 meter by 10 meter spacing, I’ll wait to hear the opinions of those most in the know - the pros that were in that Hawaii group. Has anyone seen anything written by any of them?
i don’t think this is how the rule works. there is nothing about being 10m behind anyone. just 2m to the side and not directly behind. trust me, those guys were a lot closer than 10m. just look how t2 was. ever seen that in hawaii before?
by the way, i think we already went over this. i was hoping the broadcast might force some people who don’t get it to come to their senses.
(e) Staggered Positioning. All cyclists must assume and maintain a staggered riding position relative to the cyclists directly ahead; no cyclist may maintain a position of the course directly in line with a cyclist directly ahead. This staggered position must be maintained even if the cyclist is outside of the drafting zone and following at a distance of greater than ten (10) meters.
Yes, recalling the discussions on the forum some weeks back about the line extending “infinitely” under this rule, I was really puzzled watching the pro men ride in a seemingly double-file line. How exactly were the referees asked to enforce the rule at Kona?
I talked to a pro who finished very high up and he was really pissed at the drafting that was going on in the lead pack. He opted out of the drafting and ended up suffering on the run for it. Heck that is probably why the coverage was only an hour, if it was any longer you would have seen major drafting going on. I can only imagine what kind of drafting was happening behind in the the age groupers.
The coverage on NBC showed so little but case in point, you got the picture. The NBC coverage is always suspect so one can’t hope for much race coverage via that broadcast.
I brought this up once before and I’m not sure how many saw the webcast but Ironmanlive.com had the whole race live on the web. Now while at many times the camera was pointed at the exit area of transition and all you saw were athlete’s leaving transition, which I thought was rather broing, there were tons of good segments where they showed the action unfolding.
Early on in the bike there were helicopter shots showing the leader Faris Il-Satin (sp) and the groups following behind. He stayed out front for a really long time, past Hawi. In the early stages of the bike, I estimated there were 25 guys in the stagger formation, and you could clearly see the race officials on motorcycles monitoring the situation. That mega group broke into 2 groups with the latter group really small with only 4 or 5 guys in it and there was at least one person stuck in the middle. I didn’t watch the whole bike portion b/c they would pan back to transition and stay there for such long periods and there was nothing to watch but what I did see was pretty crazy looking.
Did anyone else see the webcast? I missed a lot. I missed Larsen dropping out, some guys complaining about drafting to the media vans (I heard it was Lieto??), Stadler going off the front and the penalty’s and DQ’s (so they did bust some guys.)
I did watch a lot of the run which was pretty cool and Reid looked good. I thought Luke Bell was going to win b/c he was really running well but Reid poured it on late. I could never figure out who Beke was, and yeah, NBC barely showed him cross in 2nd which is too bad, b/c that is huge.
They need to go back to 10 meter back plus 2 meters to the side like years of past. Throw in a healthy Larsen and it is totally different. If it remains, maybe the Germans will form a group that works with Larsen. Who knows…
I don’t know who the commentator of the race was for NBC but he mentioned something on national tv that the leader of the race would have a hard time overcomming the aerodynamics of the group behind. Might not have been his exact words but he did emply about the advantage with the use of the word aerodynamic.
Correct me if I’m wrong… but isn’t one of the main reasons for the new stagger rule so that the female pros can ride free of the fast age group men. I read in one of the post Kona race reports that the female pros loved the new stagger rule.
Last year Lori had to sit in the sin bin because a fast age grouper passed her and then sat back and rested on his laurels putting her in the drafting zone with a drafting-cop watching.
just to clarify:
you stagger only with respect to the first guy in front of you. so you just need to be 2m on the side and only 1m back.
now, if there is a 3rd dude, he has to stagger with respect to the 2nd rider, but cannot be within 10m of the first guy. that is if the 2nd one is 2m on the right and 1m back, the 3rd cannot be 2m left of the 2nd and 1m back (he would be 2m behind the 1guy) so you stagger with respect to the first rider but have to respect the 10m with respect to the other riders.
Francois,
I guess I misinterpreted the word “directly” in the rules Larry posted (and then deleted). I assumed it meant directly ahead, no matter how many places ahead that rider was. This seemed logistically impossible, and how you explained it makes much more sense. But geez, I can’t see how these rules were approved in the first place. I can’t imagine anything happening but the pack forming a double-file line to take advantage of these rules, especially (as Bobo noted) on a windy course with such a big number of top-level pros racing.
Was the “stay right, pass left” such a problem for the men in the past? Is it not possible to apply the stagger rule to the pro women, only?
Francois-
Thank you for that post, you answered a question I had been meaning to ask and I think you answered it. In the latest issue of Triathlete magazine there is perhaps the best shot yet of the mens pro bike group (at least that I have seen.) It clearly shows 16 guys, 8 on one side of the road and 8 on the other, however, by my eyeball it looks as if many are in a direct line in back of the guy in front (and in some instances no where near 10 meters back.) Triathlete’s captions is “Peleton or paceline?” How true. Up to now, I had only seen some footage on ironmanlive.com which was grainy on my computer screen but it looked like there were guys in a direct line behind the guy in front, so it is good to see that validated.
My question was if say, Cam Brown who is last in line is feeling great and wants to go off the front, does he ride up between all the guys who are splitting the road?
The next question is, why in the world would you ever want to be in one of the front two positions? The article mentions that Helrigel and DeBoom made an effort to stay at the front, but that there was some shuffling of the lead and that the work was being shared. All this under the watchful eye of race officials.
I’m blown away that it has come to this. Such a huge part of IM racing / non drafting triathlon is the purity of the bike leg being a lone time trial effort. If they wanted a ‘more exciting’ race or for the race to hinge on the marathon more so that ever or the excitement of 10 people leaving transition together…I guess, mission accomplished.
I have raced Kona and participated as a bike marshall for the first time this year as a brand new CAT 3 official. So here’s my $.02 on this new “stagger rule” at this year’s race:
– Lots of confusion in this thread over the actual rule. The bottom line is that the pros cannot be in anybody’s 2x10 m drafting zone except when overtaking. Doesn’t matter who’s on first or what’s on second. The real difference is that you have be to “staggered” (no actual definition of this cross-distance, and it’s not 1 meter) relative to the rider in front of you. At the race official briefing, Charlie was asked how far back behind a pro rider had to be relative to the rider in front of him/her and not worry about being “staggered” – I can’t quote him exactly, but it was something along the line of about three times the length of the conference room we were sitting in(easily more than 60 meters). As to the real reason for the stagger rule, I recall a discussion (I didn’t pay close attention here, so don’t consider this gospel) involving the fact that this new rule helps to prevent pros from riding in the draft zone or just on the edge of it, and then when they hear the pitter patter of the official’s motorcycle, they quickly drift back out of the drafting zone. With the stagger rule, the official can call a violation from behind the violater from a “covert” distance without having to motor in alongside the rider and confirm the distance/time. In my mind, this makes a lot of sense after witnessing packs quickly “lengthen” after hearing a particularly loud Harley bike.
– In official’s brief we were also told that this new rule was going to probably cause some confusion/anger with the male age groupers biking with the pro females because of the pros not having to worry about a position foul or passing on the right. I was very glad that because of my junior CAT 3 status, I was marshalling way back with the 6 hour bikers and didn’t have to worry about differentiating between female pros/age group females/and road-rage males. Don’t know how this confusion is ever going to be prevented, because we all know a lot of age-groupers don’t understand the rules pertaining to them, let alone the elite rules!
- From my triathlete perspective, however, it is clear from reading the pro comments in this thread and having experienced the crosswinds on the Queen K highway, that the stagger rule does now provide a “new” way to draft in a crosswind situation, totally legally.
One other things I “learned” as a new CAT 3 official in Kona:
- It was a pretty interesting experience, and I’m glad I did it, but I’m not doing it again unless I get reimbursed. It doesn’t have to be much, but it’s the principle – I’d get paid at a podunk local race as a CAT 3, but all-powerful WTC believes that the privilege to be a off-island official at Kona is incentive enough (I believe that the on-island officials were paid, and suffice to say I was not impressed with the overall quality of that group’s experience/knowledge) to put in 4 hours for a race brief and then spend 8 hours in the nice Hawaiian sun on the back of a motorcycle. (Oh, don’t forget the occasional nasty little remarks of the athlete you just stood down or the third degree burn I managed to get on my calf when I staggered off the bike to get some water. To say nothing of the stress caused by wondering if your bike driver can successfully negotiate the 4 ft wide space between the oncoming VIP bus and traffic cones at 50 mph.) Just seems strange to me that for a sport’s World Championship, the race director can’t put in some effort to get equally high caliber officials for all of the athletes, not just 4 or 5 very experienced officials for the pros… (and the race probably needs more CAT 1,2, and experienced 3 officials with the top riders).
Francois, dude, I completely agree with you.
Mele Kalikimaka!
Francois,
I guess I misinterpreted the word “directly” in the rules Larry posted (and then deleted).
I guess that was sort of a rude way for me to drop out of the thread. There were some facts that I didn’t consider when I started the post - like that fact that I wasn’t in Kona and the fact that I didn’t see any of the TV coverage. The rule was cut directly from the USAT website and was really the only factual contribution that I had. The rule text stayed with your reply so I did an exit - stage left.
Larry