Thanks for sharing the story of your recent sessions with Bjorn A.
I’m at a point where I’m prepping for my B race of the season which is a month and a half away so I’m hitting the bike hard.
I’ve been very methodical w/ tracking my wattage during my twice a week 40K TT’s and 1x/wk Big Hills Day.
My power is all there and my focus right now is how to get out on the run at a pace thats only 15-20 secs off my stand alone 13.1 for the first half and hopefully get an even or negative split for the second.
At this point my best results have come from spreading my legs work load on the bike between my front quads at the most forward saddle pt., then shifting to my glutes and hamstrings by sitting on the back of the Arione Tri…and also having the calves kick in w/ toe down cadence.
So by rotating these 3 groups my “running” legs seem fresher.
My off season resistance training has really paid off in huge dividends as I worked on my Hip Abductors,both inner and outer, and my glutes,both minimus and the piriformis.
I did gain about 4 lbs of new muscle weight,but, the wattage gain is worth it,and I also noticed that my ability to keep my legs tucked in close to the top tube is no longer difficult.Its where my knees live all the time now…huge aero gains me think.
My question is how do you feel about the longevity of a triathlete in IM distance when they are 300+watt 75-80rpm Pedal mashers vs. 220-230 watt 90-100 rpm spinners( I was a former 80 rpm Big Gear masher).
It took me a while to become a spinner, but my legs and knees thank me. Once I got used to the higher aerobic rate I really feel its the way to go for me.
FWIW 2 weeks ago I tried dumping a huge bucket of ice water I had waiting for me at home as I got off the bike.
Stretched for about 60 secs and went off on my run.
Best result so far.I think it subsided any swelling my bike legs had.
I’m hoping I can do this on race day.
I wish I could have seen the testing you guys did.
Maybe this isn’t appropriate for public discussion, but…
Did you reach any conclusions from your sessions with Bjorn? Did you have any advice for him? Do you think it’s necessary for him to evolve into a spinner in order for him to reach his full potential?
“My question is how do you feel about the longevity of a triathlete in IM distance when they are 300+watt 75-80rpm Pedal mashers vs. 220-230 watt 90-100 rpm spinners( I was a former 80 rpm Big Gear masher).”
In the case of Bjorn’s test, the difference was the cadence and not the wattage. I think that one of the main objectives of the test was to see what effect the higher rpms would have on Bjorns run since he has not run to his potential in an IM just yet. If there was a translation comparing two different 30 minute rides followed by the same 5 mile run, then it’s possible/plausible that translation would be greater at the IM distances.
300+ watts is 300+ watts. Saying that someone is a 300+ watt masher or a 220-230 watt spinner is a little bit misleading. The test with Bjorn was done at a constant wattage of 370 watts…the different test was checking to see how the 370 watt Masher ran off of the bike compared to the 370 watt spinner. Just because a rider is spinning a higher cadence does not assume that they are riding a lower wattage. I can’t answer your question, but as I said above, the test was done to see if there was going to be a direct effect on running after biking at a higher cadence. I would assume that the thought process Slowman, Bjorn, Monty, went on was that a higher cadence would result in a faster IM run.
I’m not very familiar with training with power, so I have a question based on ignorance. I assume that the amount of power it takes to maintain a certain speed is fixed, regardless of cadence. Correct?
When I first read it with my initial assumptions, it seemed like a wierd test. I was assuming that wattage was more akin to the amount of force applied, in other words, how “hard” you were pedalling. In that case, at a higher cadence you’d be applying that force much more quickly. That would translate directly into higher speed. So I thought, “Well, of COURSE, he couldn’t maintain the higher cadence, he’s going a lot faster. That would be like being surprised that you couldn’t maintain the same cadence on your large ring that you could on your small.”
I’m now realizing I must have been mistaken and that for rider X to go Y mph in given conditions, he must expend Z watts, no matter what cadence or gear he’s using. Is this accurate?
It is possible that Bjorn’s self selected lower cadence is appropriate for his specific physiology and muscle fiber composition.
Many have often theorized that relatively higher cadences avoid recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers and therefore decrease glycogen usage and neuromuscular fatigue. One could also theorize that if Bjorn has fewer fast twitch fibers to recruit, he could more optimally produce aerobic power at lower cadences.
There may be some problems with trying to fit everyone to similar cadence and/or fit parameters given the fact that we all have different physiological characteristics.
From an internet observation perspective (and I say this with the utmost respect as people can only glean so much, even from a well written article), I see two drastic changes all at once. Position and cadence.
If the experiment just changed position and left cadence low, the run outcome would be interesting to note. A year later, assuming he stuck with the position and the cadence came up to 100, then the high cadence part of the test might yield some more fruitful results ?
Would this test be somewhat like taking a 100 RPM rider and try to make him pedal at 115 RPM in the space of day. That would be tough. I know I pedal in the 95-110 range on the flats for many hours and even going about 115 to 120 for more than a minute is insanely tough.
Conventional wisdom is to move to higher cadence to save energy and legs. What is optimal cadence? How does this correlate to muscle tissue, strength and body type? When you compare cadence of Urllich to Armstrong and look at the body types are they each in their own best zone or should Urllich being training to spin?
The discussion surrounding Bjorn is always fascinating, not just that the discussion and interest is taking place, but that it’s happening at all. For some reason, many want Bjorn to really pull through and do well. Not sure, if this is genuine, desire for him to do well or for for some rationalization for the hell-bent-biker movement to finally succeed and take over the sport. My personal observations:
The guy has huge talent and often it is best not to mess with huge talent but let it flourish - or burn out on it’s own. I know that sounds harsh, but sport in the upper echelons is like that.
People are always tossing advice Bjorn’s way, but it’s interesting to me that one of his main training partners, Gordo Byrn goes in completely the opposite direction - Building mammoth cycling fitness, but then never using it because it’s really just setting up for the run. G had one of the best quotes I have ever seen on this front and it went something like this: “haveing huge triathlon bike fitness is like having a huge nuclear arsenel. It’s always best if you never have to use it”. Does Bjorn take note of this? JUst curious.
Right now, with a few exceptions, regardless of the format, and regardless of the length, triathlon is more about the run, than the other three sports. So, to do well, you better be able to run well consistantly, however, you arrive at that point.
I have my thoughts about Bjorn, but I ALWAYS get in trouble when I express them… I wish things work out for him and that in the future he reaches his potential as an elite athlete.
Gordo Byrn goes in completely the opposite direction - Building mammoth cycling fitness, but then never using it because it’s really just setting up for the run.
From what I’ve seen of Gordo’s improvements and his power data, he uses every last watt of his mammoth cycling fitness. His FT has taken large leaps in not too much time…
“I see two drastic changes all at once. Position and cadence.”
yeah, there was only so many bites i had at the apple. so i decided to swing for the fence.
i’ll have an interview with bjorn up this afternoon, and it’ll shed a bit more light on it. basically, the cadence part of the experiment was a shot in the dark. i knew his cadence had quickened over the past several months, and thought i’d see what would happen if we just sped up evolution.
the only thing i proved is that 100rpm isn’t going to work for bjorn over a maximal, short distance effort, as of today. the position wasn’t that foreign to him, according to him. the cadence was. before we even started, he got on the bike, and said about the position, “fine.” but then i said, “okay, now pedal it at 100rpm.” then it was, “oh, man, i don’t think i can do that, i think that’ll rip my legs up.” and that’s what happened.
Many have often theorized that relatively higher cadences avoid recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers and therefore decrease glycogen usage and neuromuscular fatigue.
Interesting you bring this up.
My racing weight in 2002/03 was 174 lbs 5’10 avg cadence 75-80 rpm.
For the 2004/05 season I’m now at 161 lbs avg cadence in the 90’s .sustainable in the flats .The weight came off not intentionally ,but,mainly by volume increase on run and bike at higher cadences.
Oddly enough, my nutrional needs for KCals is dramatically higher.To the point where I’m worried that I can’t bring enough in the bottles.
I try to take in 400-500/hr after 1 hr on the bike to get my run fuel settled in.
Its really true that once you build your engines burning efficiency it burns a hotter fire.
I just wish there was a supplement or fuel company that can incorporate NaPhosphate to a carb drink to stave off Serotonin build up and to also keep our muscle pH in check.
I’ve tried most of them and still feel most are barely adequate.
Even though I’ve switched my cadence speed- I still feel that there is merit to both styles of pedaling, body physiology is still a determinant factor.
In my case, I just couldn’t run well pedaling hard.
I still a so-so runner,but, better than 2 years ago ,and still striving.
“Conventional wisdom is to move to higher cadence to save energy and legs. What is optimal cadence?”
optimal cadence probably has more to do with the distance than any physiological difference between people. for IM, it’s going to be 85-ish, perhaps 5 fewer beats for bjorn. i believe normann averaged 83. for a half-IM, add 5 beats. olympic, add 5 more. sprint, add 5 more. take away the run from any of these efforts and make it a pure cycling event, add 5 more.
bjorn is closing in on his optimal cycling position and technique. he’s got a bit more tweaking on race tactics and running technique, and then he’ll break through. he’s within a year of some really big performances. he’s not going to win anything off the bike. he’s going to win it off the LAST THIRD the bike, and the run. he’s just like normann, just younger. and swedish.
Slowman, thanks for the quick input. One piece of anecdotal evidence with a sample set of one. For a few half Ironman and olympic tris, I tried to race at the upper end of my cadence range at 105-110. What I found was my bike was a bit slower, I was quicker starting the bike but then I slowed down at the end of the run considerably. What I attributed this to was overtaxing hip flexors and hamstrings during the ride and them dying on me towards the end of the run. I started the run quicker though and I attribute that to the legs feelinging “more lively and less of a quad burn”. When I went back to more of a 95-105 range, biking seemed to be better, run times went down a bit, but I was slower off the bike. Again, this was a sample set of one person and the feedback was off different courses on different days with varying levels of taper/rest going into the race.
All this to say, is that my natural range of efficiency (or what I am trained to) seems to be ~100 RPM on the bike. On the run, it is more like 87-88 and no matter how hard I try, I seem to drop down to this cadence, especially when tired.
It’s interesting to note that you consider ca. 85 rpm to be an optimal cadence for ironman distances, yet tested Bjorn at 100rpm when his natural cadence (at least on a computrainer) was around 80 rpm. Why didn’t you just have him give the new position a try at his usual cadence and then later at 85 rpm?
FYI, count me in the “self-selected cadence is optimal” camp.
I’m interested to see what his ave. cadence will be at Wildflower since it’s hilly. It seemed to me that his preferred climbing cadence hovered right around 50, even if that meant he was putting out 7-9 watts per rpm. 7-9 watts per rpm!? That just seems like a gigantic torque load difference in comparison to the run that will follow. Just as it ripped up his legs by increasing his rpm 25% on the fit bike, I would assume it may rip up his legs if he tries climbing the hills at Wildflower 25-50% faster than he likes to climb at generally. What’s a Bjorn to do? Climb at low rpm during Wildflower, or try to sustain an even cadence throughout the entire race?
Could somebody spot this guy a PT SL built into a disc/808/stratus/etc. already, you know, for the sake of curious minds (and of course for his own training benefit)? Maybe you could do it in exchange for having a live feed of his watts during a race, and you know that would make for tons of traffic on your site, whoever you are that is willing to hook him up.
“yet tested Bjorn at 100rpm when his natural cadence (at least on a computrainer) was around 80 rpm.”
i wasn’t testing bjorn at IM effort, but at more like a 40k effort. hence the faster cadence. i really didn’t think the 100 rpm cadence would bother him as much as it did.
“ould somebody spot this guy a PT SL built into a disc/808/stratus/etc. already, you know, for the sake of curious minds (and of course for his own training benefit)?”
i’m loaning him one of my PTs (while you help me sell the other one, joe). plus, you know that interesting conglomeration we built as an aero bar we’re sticking on the airborne we’re building for you to ride? mark vandermolen at profile design stuck a bunch of hardware into the mail today, so that i can put it on the new tiphoon i’m building for myself, and we’re going to try to fart around with it on bjorn’s bike as well.