Slowman asked me to post my personal fit coordinates, thinking some of you may be interested. They are posted to my user profile if you care to see them. I have experimented with many different positions through the years, but continually revert back to a more traditional (by road standars) set up. Currently the two bikes I am riding are not set quite as aggressively in regard to saddle/bar drop, since it is not race season and I am primarily locked to the trainer. Current Tri bike set up is almost identical to that I used to win IM Lake Placid in 2001. I believe the most aggressive drop I have used for an Ironman was at IM new Zealand in 2003, where saddle / pad drop was closer to 20cm. As a reference, I am 6’1", 160ish.
so 4 cm behind BB for nose of saddle and nose to arm pad drop of 15 cm?
You ran pretty well off the bike in Placid. Do you think you digest and run better off this “higher” position?
Steve,
Thanks for updating your profile.
H
Yes, that’s how I am sitting today. I recall I was at 16cm drop at lake placid in 2001. I think I run well when I am going well, regardless of the drop to bars. I have run slow sitting up and run slow with lots of drop. But if it all comes together on race day, all things being equal, I’d rather be low.
One more question. When you did well at Wildflower some years ago…was that closer to 15 drop or 20 drop. You ran well off the bike off pretty well no run training if I recall the articles about you being injured.
My personal experience is sitting up a bit higher, I don’t give away any bike speed, but I run better in the longer races. I’m sticking a couple of spacers back in for this season. Let’s see if I run any better. Last season I did not have a single good run off the bike even though my 10K and half marathon races were pretty good (for me).
I’m 6" shorter, 10 cm lower saddle height (68.5), 10 cm of drop and 2 cm nose behind BB.
In 2003, when I was run down by Tim DeBoom in the final miles at Wildflower, I had a strong bike in horrendous conditions. I recall I was closer to 18-20 drop. I had just ridden the Tour of Georgia the week before, so I think the added bike specific fitness helped me fake my way through most of the run (I was crippled after). I was comfortable in that position as I had ridden almost exclusively for the two months prior as I healed a stress fracture. For me, when I am fit and ride fast I usually have my best runs. I have held back in other races, but if the form is not there you won’t run fast regardless.
In my experience fitting hundreds of clients at our shop between 2001 -2003, I found that most fit age groupers can ride comfortably and perform better in a range of about 12-14cm of drop. Just my experience, but I think most of the people I set up would agree, that is low enough to gain some "free speed’ without compromising their run. For me personally, I have just always performed better with a bit more drop. Remember, do as I say not as I do.
In 2003, when I was run down by Tim DeBoom in the final miles at Wildflower, I had a strong bike in horrendous conditions. I recall I was closer to 18-20 drop. I had just ridden the Tour of Georgia the week before, so I think the added bike specific fitness helped me fake my way through most of the run (I was crippled after). I was comfortable in that position as I had ridden almost exclusively for the two months prior as I healed a stress fracture. For me, when I am fit and ride fast I usually have my best runs. I have held back in other races, but if the form is not there you won’t run fast regardless.
In my experience fitting hundreds of clients at our shop between 2001 -2003, I found that most fit age groupers can ride comfortably and perform better in a range of about 12-14cm of drop. Just my experience, but I think most of the people I set up would agree, that is low enough to gain some "free speed’ without compromising their run. For me personally, I have just always performed better with a bit more drop. Remember, do as I say not as I do.
Yeah, I’d agree that most age groupers tend to run slightly less drop, especially relative to a stronger pro cyclist. When you ride as hard as you do, that means a lot more force is on the pedals, which means a lot less weight on the taint. That seems to be good for about 1.5-2cm (on average) more drop for someone like you than for a fit age group athlete of similar dimensions. You just have less pressure on the taint with that amount of drop than they would.
I’ll pitch a question your way. Do you think you run your saddle further back because you got used to nose riding from being UCI-encumbered for so long? I.e., do you think that you still sit quite far forward on your saddle and that you are just used to that because of dealing with commisaires (sp?)?
it’s interesting to note that the positions of pro athletes morph quite a bit. a lot of observers think a pro’s position is static throughout his career. quite often not so. for example, here’s a pic i took of your saddle on your p3sl in the kona racks of the 03 ironman:
then there’s the image on digital triathlon of you passing bjorn andersson during the 03 wildflower race, showing how you rode this bike. the interesting thing about that pic is that the bike positions of both of you have changed so much: bjorn is now riding much more steep than he was in that pic, and you are riding shallower.
(btw, unless we have a glitch in our system, take a look at your setting for armrest drop. did you select “pads below saddle” or “pads above saddle”?)
you’d be an interesting candidate to fit aboard a bike, because you can ride in a lot of positions. i think you were too steep in 03. but i’d probably position you steeper than you are now. i ride exactly the same saddle height as you. i ride with the armrests 1cm lower than you do, 16cm to your 15cm. but you ride with a much slacker seat angle. the other fellow who rides with our same saddle height is torbjorn sindballe, who rides with 17cm of drop – not your current 15cm, nor your all-time max of 20cm. and he rides right in between your all-time forward saddle position (2cm - 3cm in front of?) and your current 4cm behind. i think he rides 1.5cm behind.
if i was setting you up, my guess is i’d probably end up with a position for you pretty much like torbjorn’s.
Someone get Swimfan out. Steve’s got an Mdot sticker on his bike…GASP! Even the pros, sucked into the the dark side of Mdot paraphanelia (in fairness to Steve, that’s probably a bike check in sticker). Steve, tell us you don’t have Mdot tattoos too. What’s next, the Bento box too? Someone pull this thread down before Swimfan gets on it!
In regards to the personal coordinates. I don’t want to start a new thread and asked this on another post, but don’t think that it got answered…I did not ask it of ‘slowman’ though.
How would you enter the saddle position on a seat like the Adamo since you effective lose the nose of the saddle and the ‘nose’ is about 3.5cm further back? If I keep that seat on my bike, I’ll update the fit coordinates? Will that ‘mess’ up the data in the database?
then there’s the image on digital triathlon of you passing bjorn andersson during the 03 wildflower race, showing how you rode this bike. the interesting thing about that pic is that the bike positions of both of you have changed so much: bjorn is now riding much more steep than he was in that pic, and you are riding shallower.
Wow! Bjorn’s position in that pic looks particularly bad with the slack STA and big drop. (Kinda reminds me of a newbie on a road bike that heard he’d be faster if he got low in the front.) He’s come a LONG way since then!
Steve
Check the pic of Steve in the link on the above post…its a Bento Box!! : )
Dan:
If that is my bike from Kona 03’, it is no wonder I had such a bad race! I don’t ever recall setting my saddle that far forward and if I did, it certainly did not lend itself to any strong performances.
Jordan:
Trying to be objective about it, I would say that I have ridden my best closer to UCI mandated position. No matter how I am set up, I will gravitate to the tip of saddle when going hard (perhaps that is why I am better starting further back?), but I also feel that is the position where I develop the most balanced power for a long Ironman type effort.
When fitting so many athletes in the past, almost without exception they complained of cramping quads early in the run. In my opinion this is a direct result of sitting too far forward and recruiting vmo/quads throughout the bike - fatiguing those needed run muscles before you even start. Of course this is just one guy’s opinion.
damn…Larsen’s got the Mdot sticket and bento box. Next thing we know, Chuck Norris will start wearing Mdot finisher gear to the Oscar night…what’s going on in stud-land?
Steve, serious question though, do you nose ride when aero because you want your boys hanging in front of any saddle or do you nose ride when aero because you want to get steeper. I’m guessing the former. Do you nose ride, even when going easy in the aero position? And yes, if you nose ride, in general you’ll end up with what looks (without a rider) to be a slacker seat set up.
In regards to: (btw, unless we have a glitch in our system, take a look at your setting for armrest drop. did you select “pads below saddle” or “pads above saddle”?)
I put them is as “pads below saddle” and “seat behind BB” and they both show as a positive number. I checked many times so it is not an input error but incorrect nonetheless.
In regards to: (btw, unless we have a glitch in our system, take a look at your setting for armrest drop. did you select “pads below saddle” or “pads above saddle”?)
I put them is as “pads below saddle” and “seat behind BB” and they both show as a positive number. I checked many times so it is not an input error but incorrect nonetheless.
Yes, I just fixed this. So they will now show up correctly.
“what’s going on in stud-land?”
Chuck Norris in compression tights? : )
I think I asked Slowman the same question when he posted his article on preferred builds.
What was the deciding factors into choosing a 58cm vs. 56cm P3C? It seems like a lot of guys in the 6’-0" to 6’-1" range always debate between choosing whether they should be on a 58cm or 56cm Cervelo P3C.
I have actually ridden both the 56 (most of 2002 ) and 58cm. I usually choose the 58cm to accomodate my longer torso, but actually am thinking about going back to the smaller bike. In fitting athletes at our shop, I found that most people can move down one full size as compared to their road bike for optimum fit. I would say ride the smallest bike that you can achieve your optimum fit with.