It’s been said before.
But seeing him post such great bike splits makes me hog wash all the aero talk when you compare him to so many others out there position wise. Torbjorn and Bjorn and all…
It’s all speculation until you get in the tunnel, which I am sure he has done.
No, no. I say bullshit. Fundamentally, he exposes much more of himself to the wind than do other cyclists who post slower times. I should not have mentioned Torbjorn. That was a bad example.
But I say without wind tunnel testing to prove it. He has got to have more drag than Bjorn.
He also likely has a motor the likes of which may never have been seen before and may never be seen again. If you’ve got watts “to spare”…
Haven’t seen any bike photos of Simon since his Soloist. Can anybody post a photo?
But I say without wind tunnel testing to prove it. He has got to have more drag than Bjorn.
Really? Bjorn is a pretty big guy from what I have seen, can you be certain that his frontal area and drag is less than Simon, both height and width?
I am sure that Scott did his homework when setting up Simon. Fine balance between aerodynamics and power.
Lessing is a little bit taller but lighter.
Could Simon be riding on a more relaxed seat angle and therefore generating more power than if he were in a tight aero position on a more steeply angled bike?
Do you have any pics?
I dont know what Simon looks like on the Javelin
Just because somone told Simon how he should be positioned, it doesn’t mean he was willing to ride that way. Slowman made some comments after Simon and Cervelo parted ways about Simon’s, uhm, stubborness. I’ve a feeling he rides how he wants to ride and has enough success that he doesn’t feel inclined to change.
He likely does have more drag than Bjorn. And likely more power as well. But on a percentage basis, he is slower. Look at the bike splits at Disney, a flat course where aerodynamic efficiency is kind. Bjorn had the fastest bike split. He didn’t win the race, but had Simon tried to match Bjorn’s split, he likely would not have either. So far, Simon’s greatest successes on the bike have been at hilly courses. And the reason is pretty obvious. Compare Simon to DZ or any top tour TT’er. His position sucks. He happens to be enough of an incredible talent to overcome it.
But I’ll take a bet that he will not win IM Hawaii unless he changes his position from what it was at Wildflower.
maybe just comes down more to talent, genetics, athletic gifts…and Simon has been watched by other pros who admit being freaked out by his ability in all three disciplines.
Amazing to watch this guy fly when he has a good day!
Fundamentally, he exposes much more of himself to the wind than do other cyclists who post slower times.
Probably true. He can produce more power than those other guys. Simple physics. He’s a great, great athlete.
But the more important point for us age groupers is this: We ain’t Simon Lessing! If I could hold 300+ watts in an IM, I might sit up too. However, I’ll be lucky to hold 175 (even if I train my nuts off) and I’ll be racing against people that can hold 235. So, I better get myself more aerodynamic than those other guys if I hope to hang on.
I did a half IM this year on 191 average watts and out-split at least a dozen people that I know of who rode with more (much more, in some cases) watts than me.
I out-split one guy by 7 minutes who averaged 225 watts, and we weigh the same. So who is the smarter racer in that case? He’s a better athlete than me, but it’s speed that counts.
We are all best served to optimize our own race speed, using what gifts and fitness we have. We are not well served to merely imitate athletes with different gifts and fitness.
Simon is a stud and I’m hoping he’ll jump back in the ring to grab a spot for October. Still waiting to hear if he’s committed yet…
Not really sure why folks are so concerned with Simon when there are many others which more “questionable” positions. Shall we talk about Stadler 2003? Heck, Macca is more upright than Lessing!
If you can’t hold your aero position…it’s not going to help.
.
Looks pretty good to me, as long as he’s comfortable.
Pre Cervelo
.
Simon’s current position is far better than 90 percent of the “critique my position” photos posted here and elsewhere.
Somebody got it right about the wind tunnel drag numbers when it was said that you don’t know until you actually get in the tunnel.
Gordo and Bjorn went to the tunnel earlier this year…Gordo’s numbers were better than Bjorn, despite Bjorn being able to bend himself over into a bullet. Why? Well, as was noted…Bjorn is a bigger dude.
The point is that having a super-flat back and being low enough to lick your front tire are not the ONLY indicators of an aerodynamic position. Its a total package, and none of us can say for certain that one person is significantly more aero than another by simply looking…well, I suppose we can pick out gross differences…but certainly not in Simon’s case…you just don’t know for certain… Maybe JC or other wind-tunnel rats might be able to eyeball a bit better than others… but not most of us who’ve NEVER been in a wind tunnel.
Really? Bjorn is a pretty big guy from what I have seen, can you be certain that his frontal area and drag is less than Simon, both height and width?
I am sure that Scott did his homework when setting up Simon. Fine balance between aerodynamics and power.
Bjorn has terrible aerodynamics (at least compared to TT’rs and plenty of other triathletes). Gordo posted Bjorn’s wind-tunnel numbers back in March.
I’ve never seen any evidence from Dave’s athletes that he pays attention to aerodynamics. He seems to entirely ignore it.
Some of the faster Ironman times have been posted by dudes with sail like positions. Hellriegel, Zack, Macca, Al Sultan, Van Lierde. None of these guys were super low and ALL went sub 8.
You guys are way too obsessed with aero positions. The positions that these athletes have ridden in, allow them to stay on the aerobars for a higher percentage of the time, allows them to digest food, and saves their lower back and hamstrings so they can run off the bike. The moment you aero freak boys understand this you’ll go faster for the bike-run.
Granted, you don’t want to be pushing too much wind, but you want a position that you can hold. I have seen way too many dudes with so called “aero positions” who sit up “in search of power” as soon as they hit a slight uphill or stiff headwind. Better to ride in a position that you can actually hold 95% of the time.
On the other extreme, I concede, that my position is quite sail like and could do with some refinement, but for the moment, I don’t want to mess with a position that gave me a 2:28 and 2:27 bike splits in two half Ironmans over the last month on hilly windy courses. After Ironman LP, I’m gonna see if I can clean up the position but if I can’t hold the position in a 25 mph headwind going up a 3% grade, it is useless.
So you have extensive experience (hundreds if not thousands of “positioning” sessions and have learned from the likes of John Cobb?) in analyzing aerodynamics, understanding biomechanics, and correcting it?
…other than the armchair “positioning” experts seem to provide here (with the obvious exclusion of Slowman, Tom D., and others who do it for a living?).
I think Rich Ducar (the guy who set up Simon on his Javelin) kinda knows what he is doing
