Hi folks, thanks for anyone willing to share their wisdom:
question – shoe choice for the run at IM Moo; I am planning on using Asics Magic Racer 7.4oz. My other option is Asics 2090 (12oz). Don Fink has written that if marathon time is less than 3:45, then one can consider using racing flat because weight-saving is more important than the increased pounding.
I have only used the Magic Racer for my track work outs, and today just did a 20-miler on them. I was doing all concrete/asphalt. My muscles and plantar fascia do feel more sore than usual, but that may be due to an intense training week.
the Magic racer has about 70 miles on them. The asics 2090 are new now, so race time probably 20-30 miles to break them in.
God-willing, knock on wood–insert other cliches–I should have a run split under 3:45, possibly under 3:30. Any thoughts on 7.4oz vs. 12oz?
Remember that the legs will feel completely different after 112 miles of biking than they will “fresh” on a 20-mile training run. If you can get away with a racing flat in an IM, well, good for you----but it might be wise to opt for something with a bit more cushioning.
I run in Asics from time to time, and I know they’ve got to have something in their lineup in between the flat and the 12+ ounce shoe that should work for you.
hi Brian,
from original poster…
thanks for your input; in your opinion, what is the pace under which one is justified in wearing racing flat for the run of an IM race?
First off, wait a day or two for your feet and legs to feel the full effects of your run today. If your feet can handle it, then go with the lighter shoes. Your legs are going to be dead as it is, so lighter shoes will only help you. Also, the less cushioning in the shoe may lead to a softer footstrike and reduced vibrations from the pounding, which might keep the legs fresher a wee bit longer. I am biased though since all of my running is in minimalist shoes. Hell, go buy a pair of Nike Air Streak XC’s and burn out a 2:45.
I run in Asics from time to time, and I know they’ve got to have something in their lineup in between the flat and the 12+ ounce shoe that should work for you.
Asics DS Trainers. I wore them in Lake Placid (4:13 marathon) and my feet felt as good as could be expected. I think they are my new long distance racing shoe.
fresh? somewhere around 3:00-3:15 depending upon the biomechanics of the runner and the runner. Personally for me, I’d not wear flats in a marathon even if I was going to run 2:45, and I’m pretty efficient of a runner.
…“I should have a run split under 3:45, possibly under 3:30”…
Now, I have no idea who you are, what you’re capable of, or your IM experience, but this is a HUGE difference in time. Especially when you look at how much difference the swim and bike can make. If you’re not 100% sure that you’re hitting a sub 3:30, err on the side of 3:45.
I don’t mean to discourage you, but you should really just think about doing a lightweight trainer and be done with all the guesswork. 10-10.5oz will do very well. Don’t set yourself up for failure by thinking in an “ideal world” you’re hitting under 3:30. Alot happens out there between the start and finish.
If you’ve done the majority of your training in a 12oz shoe, just use the 10oz and know you’re saving some weight but keeping enough stability. Since you appear to be an Asics fan, hit the DSTrainer. Save the Magic racer for the sprints and Oly’s.
I wholeheartedly agree with the opinions of all who have answered your post. The weight savings of a flat vs a training shoe or even a light-weight trainer is negligible when compard to the pounding your feet and legs will take. I would even suggest using a light weight trainer when running a marathon, unless you are a Natl or World class runner with a very efficient stride.
As mentioned by others, you might want to try the DS Trainer. I love 'em, and the difference in weight between my Asics flats and the DS is slight. The support of the DS is far greater than that of the flat, and my guess is you will be thankful of that come race day.
I did not want to turn this thread into “how fast to expect my run” given whatever previous records;
I appreciate the consensus, which seems to be weight saving is good, but 7oz may be too little protection;
I’ve actually been running the last 1000 miles on saucony hurricane 4 and 5s, which are probably 13.5oz. I used to use asics 2000 series and have a new pair off of ebay a while ago. I’ll go shop for a pair of DS trainer.
for those who’ve used DS trainers, there are older models available online; such as version VI, IX, and X. Cost is an issue for me, so are there older versions to avoid? thanks!
If you saw the studies on how much extra effort you need for each extra ounce of shoe… you’d wear the lightest possible. I’d run barefoot if I could.
A lighter shoe will help your run a faster marathon just like a lighter bike will help you do 180km faster. Free speed.
Who cares how much it beats up your legs? Do you need to recover quickly after your IM to do another? Hell no! Ok… if you do, then your nuts. I drink beer for three weeks myself.
I agree with Desert Dude, it’s not worth it for a marathon unless you’re an elite runner. (And even then, I somewhat remember that Khannouchi didn’t set his records with racing flats but light trainers.)
Another thing to consider: there is a good chance that you’re going to pour water on yourself to cool down… and your shoes will get wet fast. (I, for one, never finished an Ironman with dry shoes.) In the end, your shoes, flats or trainers, are going to be heavier from the water.
Your mileage may vary. An excellent runner in my area (exceptionaly efficient, I may add) only wears flats whether training or racing. And he wears them out too. He says it makes his feet stronger. Which is probably true.
has anyone out there worn very light racing flats for the run of an IM? it seems people out there use 10-11oz lightweight trainers, but what about sub-8oz?
if you have, what are your thoughts?
what do the pros and top AG’ers wear on the IM run?
(of course, these weights refer to their advertised weight, which is size 9 men’s, I think)
I have been running in racing flats only, or bare feet for the last 5 1/2 months. Initially the 8 oz Saucony shoe and then alternating between an Ascics 8 oz racer and a Brooks T3 that has the insole ripped out and is worn down to nothing on the outsole. It feels almost like running barefoot and is probably about a 4 oz shoe now. I’m up to 60 miles per week in that combo with no issues.
Running in lighter, minimal shoes is really a question of foot and leg adaptation. If you run a lot of miles in your 8 oz shoe then it shouldn’t be a problem. If you only run some specific workouts, then I would stick with whatever shoe you run the most miles in. When I have gone to racing flats for marathons in the past, I felt really pounded at the 15-20 mile mark. My legs were not used to running in that type of shoe for any length of time.
…“If you saw the studies on how much extra effort you need for each extra ounce of shoe”…
Really? Which scientific study is the one that you are referring to? I’d like to have the reference to it- b/c most of the evidence is only theoretical or anecdotal at best (Ex: theoretical being 20-30 seconds/10k, or “I’m SO much faster in flats”). Unless you’ve got your hands on a published study specific to the IM marathon, this doesn’t mean jack-crap to the IM marathon.
Hell, you can make up more time than 20-30/10k just by not walking aid stations.
Plus, nearly all racing flats have a decreased heel counter, which means a longer stretch for the calf and achilles at impact. Tri-geeks may get away with this for a 10k or 1/2IM run, but when it comes to an IM time that is going to be too much stress for the last half of the marathon. This could lead to increased cramping (non-electrolyte related), muscle tears (changing running gait and causing blisters), or just a blow to the psych (which may force you to walk). Even if it came down to the time savings and nothing else, 2 minutes is not going to make or break a 3:45 marathon runner in IM.
Wear the 10oz-er. The majority of us are not fast enough to justify the flat.
Exactly- this is typically why, not to mention the weight loss of a flat is also due to the decreased cushioning in the sole (and less supportive upper).
It was absolutely comical a couple years ago- I did a very hilly Oly course for my season opener, and pulled a pretty fast 10k out of my ass. I used some NB205 (actually the model before it, but same series), and the next day/week, I hobbled around like a girly-man.
Ironically, the last mile of this race has a 1/3mile downhill. Every stride I took was sending a shock through my legs like you wouldn’t believe. Weirdest thought I was thinking at the time was not “keep the leg turnover going…stay relaxed…lean forward slightly…”, but was “#$@in race flats! I’d give anything for a little more support!”
Ok… flats are far from barefoot… but are halfway there…
I’d estimate around a 5min time saving for a 3:45 marathoner with a flat over a heavier shoe. That could be the difference in your Hawaii spot.
For people who don’t train in flats… I would never recommend them to wear them in races. Thier feet are too weak to handle it, being supported by over-protective shoes all the time.
I train all my runs in flats and have been injury free for 3 years now.
No, this is not a specific study- this is a regurgitation of previous studies which do not link a increase or decrease in performance for a IM marathoner (or any stand alone marathoner).
I’m almost getting the feeling you’re a “poser” advocate, which has been beaten to death before, and has no validity one way or another. It’s not right, it’s not wrong, there is just no valid proof behind it. Just one person’s vision of a way to market to the masses in search of the next new “s-bend.”
From a physics and biomechanics standpoint, YES, having a lightweight shoe is going to be faster theoretically. It is a cyclic movement that is going to be influenced by weight (less weight=faster cycle, or less weight moving around a center point). You’ll be able to use less muscle to move the foot because you’re moving less weight.
HOWEVER- Muscle trauma trumps physics in this game. Doesn’t mean anything if you’re even barefoot. It may mean you’ll get an extra mile or two of the “less weight shoe” speed, but the eccentric contraction and trauma induced from more shock/less support will KILL any run split any day, any week, any IM.
Your 5 minutes gain will turn into 20 minutes loss at the time you’ll need your body to respond the most.
I am not a pose advocate. I’m a light shoe advocate.
“Muscle trauma trumps physics in this game”.
I strongly disagree, but I won’t argue cuz we won’t get anywhere. Fast runners wear racing flats for a reason.
I wore racing flats 2 weeks ago for an Ironman… another PR run split. My legs felt great to the finish… in fact, my final 5k was my fastest of the day. So much for muscle trauma.
