I train in the NB1500 and have run a couple marathons in them. I love the 1500, but now that I’m used to it, I’d like to try something lighter for race day. I’ve been tempted to try the 1400/1600. What do you train with? I How do you like racing in the 1400/1600?
which ones?
Yes, I run in flats, but moderately cushioned ones that are more cushioned than my general training shoes. 60mpw 1:23 half PR, no injuries of note for a number of years.
I have trained in the Asics Cumulus for the last 6-7 years and have been racing in some iteration of what are currently named the Brooks T7s and Saucony A6s during that time. I own both the current version A6 and T7. I do 10ks-HIMs in the A6s because I prefer the flatter foot drop for shorter distances. I assume I would be fine wearing them out to a full marathon distance but haven’t tried it because I have always opted to wear the T7s for anything past about 15 miles. I find the increased midsole drop on the T7s to be a bit more comfortable for me at longer distances and kind of hate how the “drainage ports” in the A6s do the opposite in wet conditions and water will splash up through the sole and cause everything inside the shoe to get wet. I tend to get slightly less than 1000 miles/pair of Cumulus which sounds shocking to some but it sounds like you are in the same boat. I would tend to think the 20 milers you have planned will answer your question for you because how your legs feel should dictate whether or not any particular pair of shoes in right for you. I personally put much more importance on how a shoe feels and much less on how much they weight.
I had trained in a variety of Adidas shoes & then used Saucony Fastwitch series…it was light weight but more supportive than some of the ultra-light racers. However, my Prime Knit Adios Boost Racers I just got, certainly seem almost too non-supportive for a marathon–I may think about either of the DS Racer or Trainer shoes, or even the new to be released Hoka Carbon Rocket.
Unless you’re a sub 2:30 guy and <130lbs you’d be faster and more comfortable in an 8-10oz lightweight trainer.
which ones?
Yes, I run in flats, but moderately cushioned ones that are more cushioned than my general training shoes. 60mpw 1:23 half PR, no injuries of note for a number of years.
These, not technically flats but pretty close. I’ve also done a lot of general training in the Brooks ST series and Nike flats.
once a week get on a field and run barefoot strides all out with 2 minutes rest. Start to build the muscles in your feel to be acclimated to the flats.
I hate to give up the 2-3 minutes estimated time savings from racing flats vs trainers, but don’t want to get injured. This question is geared towards open marathons, NOT IM marathons. For context, I have averaged 2000 miles/yr for the last 8 years, with 10 open marathons mixed in there. Have struggled with ITB flare-ups, none for a couple years though. Gunning for 2:45 on a flat course. I have raced many half-marys injury-free in racing flats but never a full. What say you? Mileage, injury, and PR histories welcome.
I would take into consideration running form when going for a marathon in racing flats. It would be really a bad idea for a heel striker to do it since impact on joints and back without appropriate cushioning may end up bad. Forefoot/mid-foot runners with good running form is a different story, but still good volume is needed to get feet used to long distance to prevent foot fracture. I run marathons in racing flats starting with Adidas Adizero Pr and continuing in Mizuno Wave Universe II, III and IV. I’m a forefoot runner, but I used to do a lot of training in Five Fingers building volume slowly and eventually running 24 miles wearing them. Yes, running in light shoes makes a huge difference and it somewhat important for me since with a few months of training I’m still wining my age group in some decent races. If a spot on the podium is not your goal then I would rather stay on safe side and race in shoes with more cushioning.
Unless you’re a sub 2:30 guy and <130lbs you’d be faster and more comfortable in an 8-10oz lightweight trainer.
I am decidedly neither. Gunning for 2:45 and ~145 lbs at 6’. Curious about the reasons behind your recommendation?
Mizuno wave universe for me, but I’ll admit they take a bit of getting used to!
to me it’s less about the thrashing on my legs and more about my feet. lots of super-light flats give me blisters, so a longer-distance race in them would end up a losing proposition, i think.
my last race was a half marathon, and i ran in kinvaras. they’re kind to my feet and my legs felt fine; i think i’d happily take them up to full marathon. things like my NB minimus or brooks pure connect would probably leave me with bloody feet by 10k.
-mike
It sounds like we are pretty comparable as runners. I train with Asics Kayanos and race with Asics DS Racers. I use a thin lightweight insole for a little extra cusioning. I can’t tell any difference post race vs how I used to feel running marathons in trainers. I do feel faster in the flats–not sure how much that is perception vs reality.
I did when I was younger and racing marathons… i.e. a long time ago. I ran 2/year most years for a decade. Ages 21-30. Experience, had only been running seriously 18 months before my first one, but had been running casually as training for another sport for about 7 years before my first marathon. My 20 marathons were mostly in the 2:54-3:13 range, with a few bad days. Weekly mileage was in the 45-55 range most of that period, but not all 12 months of the year. 1300-1500 annual miles. Plus tri training. I didn’t deal with much in the way of injuries those years, an occasional sprained ankle, no other muscle/tendon/ligament issues. Besides racing marathons and tris (only up to Olympic distance other than one shot at a half iron) in flats I trained in them for track workouts. Typical models I used were the Nike Sock Racer (the blue one with laces not the yellow one with clips), Nike Duelist, Reebok Racer X, Asics Gel Racer.
In hindsight I’m not convinced that wearing flats in marathons gained or lost me any time. It was just what we did… if it was race day you put on the flats. Maybe it was as much mental as anything?
I do 100% of my training and racing in the same shoe, the Saucony Type A6. I do however rotate out different pairs of the same shoe. My marathon PR, in those shoes, is a 2:57 for what it’s worth. Hardly the elite times posted as a prerequisite by others in the thread. Your body will adapt, but I think it’s important to commit to one shoe and train as you plan to race.
I’ve run marathons in the following:
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Brooks Racer ST4 (pretty beefy racing flat with some stability built in). - This was my best marathon shoe, and I did my PR with these on my feet. I ran (4) open marathons in these. I also wore these at IMLP, and they were the right shoe for that as well.
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Brooks Pure Cadence - I only ran (1) marathon in this lightweight trainer, and in hindsight I felt that I should have worn racing flats.
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Saucony A4 racing flat - I only ran (1) marathon in these. This is a very lightweight and minimal flat. My time was good (2nd fastest for me), but my legs took a tremendous beating. I love this shoe for 10k and under. Marathons - not so much.
The assumption that we automatically save time based on the weight of a shoe is somewhat false. The original study found that to be true but only to the point where your muscles start to have to work harder to compensate as shoes got too light/ unstructured/ cushioned. So the real answer about the right shoe is, it depends. Here’s a link to Jack Daniels Q and A about it from his blog.
The assumption that we automatically save time based on the weight of a shoe is somewhat false. The original study found that to be true but only to the point where your muscles start to have to work harder to compensate as shoes got too light/ unstructured/ cushioned. So the real answer about the right shoe is, it depends. Here’s a link to Jack Daniels Q and A about it from his blog.
This.
Unless you’re a sub 2:30 guy and <130lbs you’d be faster and more comfortable in an 8-10oz lightweight trainer.
I am decidedly neither. Gunning for 2:45 and ~145 lbs at 6’. Curious about the reasons behind your recommendation?
Just dipped under 2:45 at LA in Altra One 2.5 racers. Previous 5 or 6 marathons were run in Free 3.0 v5. Made the decision to race in the Altras over Frees based on weight (6.3 vs. 7.4). I need a wide shoe or I would have been racing in DS Racers or Lunaracers (although I think I’ve found my go-to with the Altra One now).
I had some sore feet issues when I was running too many training miles in the lighter shoes (Frees), but haven’t had any problems when I’m diligent in rotating my shoes, wearing trainers for most of my weekly miles.
46 years old, have run 20 or so open marathons. 5’-10", 170. ~85 mpw.
Unless you’re a sub 2:30 guy and <130lbs you’d be faster and more comfortable in an 8-10oz lightweight trainer.
I am decidedly neither. Gunning for 2:45 and ~145 lbs at 6’. Curious about the reasons behind your recommendation?
Literature + data from running economy testing I’ve conducted.
Unless you’re a sub 2:30 guy and <130lbs you’d be faster and more comfortable in an 8-10oz lightweight trainer.
I am decidedly neither. Gunning for 2:45 and ~145 lbs at 6’. Curious about the reasons behind your recommendation?
Literature + data from running economy testing I’ve conducted.
I am assuming your data was from treadmill testing with a VO2 apparatus. What was your testing protocol and how is it translatable to the back half of a 26.2 mile race?