SCOTUS Decision - US v. Davis (Gorsuch joins the liberals to strike down "crime of violence" law)

Another interesting decision, in part because of how the vote went down. I tend to agree with the dissent. The law has been around for 33 years and used tens of thousands of times. Hard to come out now and say it is vague. In addition, it places the Justices in an interesting position. The liberal Justices have all favored enhanced gun control. When given the opportunity to weigh in on punishment for gun violence, however, they go the opposite direction.

Interesting times indeed.

Background: Maurice Davis and Andre Glover were convicted of a string of gas station robberies in June 2014. During the robberies, they brandished a short-barrel shotgun. Because of this, in addition to being charges with robbery, they were charged with a “crime of violence,” which is defined as a felony “that by its nature, involved a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.” This federal law has been in existence for the past 33 years and used to increase the penalty for crimes committed using a firearm.

Argument: Davis and Glover argued the crime of violence was unconstitutionally vague. Basically, the law does not specifically state that use of a firearm in the commission of these crimes will result in an enhanced punishment. A defendant cannot be punished for a crime that he/she did not know was being committed because the law is vague on the conduct.

Decision: Gorsuch joined Kagen, Ginsburg, Breyer, and Sotomayor in rendering the decision that the law was unconstitutionally vague.

Summary of the Holding: “In our constitutional order, a vague law is no law at all. Only the people’s elected representatives in Congress have the power to write new federal criminal laws. And when Congress exercises that power, it has to write statutes that give ordinary people fair warning about what the law demands of them. Vague laws transgress both of those constitutional requirements. They hand off the legislature’s responsibility for defining criminal behavior to unelected prosecutors and judges, and they leave people with no sure way to know what consequences will attach to their conduct. When Congress passes a vague law, the role of courts under our Constitution is not to fashion a new, clearer law to take its place, but to treat the law as a nullity and invite Congress to try again.”

Summary of the Dissent: “Over the last 33 years, tens of thousands of §924(c) cases have been prosecuted in the federal courts. Meanwhile, violent crime with firearms has decreased significantly. Over the last 25 years, the annual rate of murders with firearms has dropped by about 50 percent, and the annual rate of nonfatal violent crimes (robberies, aggravated assaults, and sex crimes) with firearms has decreased by about 75 percent. Violent crime in general (committed with or without a firearm) has also declined. During that same time period, both the annual rate of overall violent crime and the annual rate of murders have dropped by almost 50 percent. Although the level of violent crime in America is still very high, especially in certain cities, Americans under the age of 40 probably cannot fully appreciate how much safer most American cities and towns are now than they were in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. Many factors have contributed to the decline of violent crime in America. But one cannot dismiss the effects of state and federal laws that impose steep punishments on those who commit violent crimes with firearms. Yet today, after 33 years and tens of thousands of federal prosecutions, the Court suddenly finds a key provision of §924(c) to be unconstitutional because it is supposedly too vague. That is a surprising conclusion for the Court to reach about a federal law that has been applied so often for so long with so little problem. The Court’s decision today will make it harder to prosecute violent gun crimes in the future. The Court’s decision also will likely mean that thousands of inmates who committed violent gun crimes will be released far earlier than Congress specified when enacting §924(c). The inmates who will be released early are not nonviolent offenders. They are not drug offenders. They are offenders who committed violent crimes with firearms, often brutally violent crimes.”

Link to decision: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/18pdf/18-431_7758.pdf

Could they not just have one penalty for robbery and a higher one for armed robbery?

Well using that logic gun rights are in no danger since using a gun isn’t violent. Eyeroll emoji

Could they not just have one penalty for robbery and a higher one for armed robbery?

Basically, they did. They charged these guys with Hobbs Act robbery, which is an act of robbery the interferes with interstate commerce through the threat of physical violence. But, then on top of that is the catch-all “crime of violence,” which was created as part of the Gun Control Act to impose greater punishment for crimes committed with the use of a firearm.

So, you could argue the underlying criminal charge was “enough” that it did not need to enhanced charge. But, that was the very intent of the crime of violence law - to tack on additional punishment for crimes committed with a firearm.

Try again Congress…

https://comb.io/dXFZdj.gif

Well using that logic gun rights are in no danger since using a gun isn’t violent. Eyeroll emoji

Ha! It is interesting because the majority goes out of its way to avoid discussion of the actual acts here and focus only on the vagueness argument. Meanwhile, the dissent keeps going back to gun violence and, basically, taking a little shot at the majority by suggesting something similar to this.

I agree with the dissent and you on this one. At some point it seems you have to look at actual results and statistics of certain laws if they have been in place a long time, and litigated all over the place. Has it done good??

I was thinking when and if Citizens united comes back to the court, there are going to be a ton of numbers associated with how it has worked thrown in there to bolster one side or the other…

So you have Robbery
Armed robbery without threats of violence (not sure how that works)
Armed robbery where you are afraid they might shoot you.

I can see where the confusion exists.

I agree with the dissent and you on this one. At some point it seems you have to look at actual results and statistics of certain laws if they have been in place a long time, and litigated all over the place. Has it done good??

I was thinking when and if Citizens united comes back to the court, there are going to be a ton of numbers associated with how it has worked thrown in there to bolster one side or the other…

This, to me, is another example of what happens when Justices lack real world experience. To me, the majority handled this like a law school examination, reviewing constitutional minutia in a legal vacuum, paying no mind to the way the law has operated in the real world for the past 33 years. In another thread, slowguy asked me how important “real world” experience is for this Court. Well, if we are talking about highly technical intricacies of the state’s ability to regulate an item over the fed’s ability to do the same, not much. But, the majority of the cases before SCOTUS impact real people and have real world consequences. Common sense and real world application lost out today.

So you have Robbery
Armed robbery without threats of violence (not sure how that works)
Armed robbery where you are afraid they might shoot you.

I can see where the confusion exists.

Well, we have had this law in existence for 33 years and there hasn’t seemed to be any confusion. I thought it was well known by the public at large that, under federal law, when you commit a crime, and use a gun, the punishment is going to be enhanced. Now, to be fair, I have known that my entire life, but, my father was an FBI agent the majority of my life, so, perhaps I was exposed to more than the common person.

Based on the logic of the decision this seems to open the door for someone to challenge the RICO statues in the same way. I’m not an expert in RICO but I recall from my law classes that almost anything that is close to a conspiracy can potentially be lumped into RICO as the statute is very vague?

Based on the logic of the decision this seems to open the door for someone to challenge the RICO statues in the same way. I’m not an expert in RICO but I recall from my law classes that almost anything that is close to a conspiracy can potentially be lumped into RICO as the statute is very vague?

I think you are right and I think there are other potential ramifications along the same lines. The dissent kinda points to this as well. This could set a very bad precedent.

Based on the logic of the decision this seems to open the door for someone to challenge the RICO statues in the same way. I’m not an expert in RICO but I recall from my law classes that almost anything that is close to a conspiracy can potentially be lumped into RICO as the statute is very vague?

Which would throw a wrench into a ton of Law and Order episodes.

I agree with the dissent and you on this one. At some point it seems you have to look at actual results and statistics of certain laws if they have been in place a long time, and litigated all over the place. Has it done good??

I was thinking when and if Citizens united comes back to the court, there are going to be a ton of numbers associated with how it has worked thrown in there to bolster one side or the other…

This, to me, is another example of what happens when Justices lack real world experience. To me, the majority handled this like a law school examination, reviewing constitutional minutia in a legal vacuum, paying no mind to the way the law has operated in the real world for the past 33 years. In another thread, slowguy asked me how important “real world” experience is for this Court. Well, if we are talking about highly technical intricacies of the state’s ability to regulate an item over the fed’s ability to do the same, not much. But, the majority of the cases before SCOTUS impact real people and have real world consequences. Common sense and real world application lost out today.

While I agree that real world experience is important, aren’t we then allowing the justices to set law based on current conditions? I do believe how we operate today should have an affect on laws but I don’t know to what extent. However, I don’t believe any justice should create new law where it wasn’t once.

I’m in Spain on vacation and half in the bag so I’m not sure how this sounds.

I agree with the dissent and you on this one. At some point it seems you have to look at actual results and statistics of certain laws if they have been in place a long time, and litigated all over the place. Has it done good??

I was thinking when and if Citizens united comes back to the court, there are going to be a ton of numbers associated with how it has worked thrown in there to bolster one side or the other…

This, to me, is another example of what happens when Justices lack real world experience. To me, the majority handled this like a law school examination, reviewing constitutional minutia in a legal vacuum, paying no mind to the way the law has operated in the real world for the past 33 years. In another thread, slowguy asked me how important “real world” experience is for this Court. Well, if we are talking about highly technical intricacies of the state’s ability to regulate an item over the fed’s ability to do the same, not much. But, the majority of the cases before SCOTUS impact real people and have real world consequences. Common sense and real world application lost out today.

While I agree that real world experience is important, aren’t we then allowing the justices to set law based on current conditions? I do believe how we operate today should have an affect on laws but I don’t know to what extent. However, I don’t believe any justice should create new law where it wasn’t once.

I’m in Spain on vacation and half in the bag so I’m not sure how this sounds.

Not in this case. In this case, the Justices said, “no one knows what this law means.” That’s ridiculous. The law has been enforced for the past 33 years.

Now, if times change, if facts change, if technology changes, the law needs to adapt and the law needs to be “modernized.” But, that’s now what happened here. 5 Justices threw out a 33 year old law that faced none of those issues and on purely hypothetical situations. There was no evidence introduced showing the law was unable to be understood. There were no cases of individuals engaging in what they thought was legal conduct only to be shocked to learn the actions were illegal. None of that. Instead, the 5 Justices made up hypothetical arguments using hypothetical individuals in hypothetical situations, none of which happen in the real world.

what matters: process or outcome? if the process isn’t producing the outcome you want, change the process.

catch-all laws, or rules, are for the outcome-oriented. it’s like “unsportsmanlike conduct”. if i can’t find a rule to disqualify you i’ll just DQ you for that.

what matters: process or outcome? if the process isn’t producing the outcome you want, change the process.

catch-all laws, or rules, are for the outcome-oriented. it’s like “unsportsmanlike conduct”. if i can’t find a rule to disqualify you i’ll just DQ you for that.

I hear what you are saying, but, the intent was to curb gun crime. The dissent cites numerous statistics showing it has worked. Of course, it has not ended gun violence. But, the numbers are compelling.

My issue, however, is the process in this case. A law, in effect for 33 years, showing tangible results, was rendered unconstitutional, based not on real world evidence, not on a change in circumstances, not on a change in technology, not on a change in societal norms, not on a change in facts, but, hypotheticals. That bothers me.

what matters: process or outcome? if the process isn’t producing the outcome you want, change the process.

catch-all laws, or rules, are for the outcome-oriented. it’s like “unsportsmanlike conduct”. if i can’t find a rule to disqualify you i’ll just DQ you for that.

I hear what you are saying, but, the intent was to curb gun crime. The dissent cites numerous statistics showing it has worked. Of course, it has not ended gun violence. But, the numbers are compelling.

My issue, however, is the process in this case. A law, in effect for 33 years, showing tangible results, was rendered unconstitutional, based not on real world evidence, not on a change in circumstances, not on a change in technology, not on a change in societal norms, not on a change in facts, but, hypotheticals. That bothers me.

Has this law never been challenged before? I can understand the frustration with potentially undoing 33 years worth of seemingly valid convictions, but if it was never challenged before, then the court simply didn’t have an opportunity to rule previously. However, if it had been challenged and rule constitutional previously, that would seem to be a bit of a blow to the concept of precedent.

what matters: process or outcome? if the process isn’t producing the outcome you want, change the process.

catch-all laws, or rules, are for the outcome-oriented. it’s like “unsportsmanlike conduct”. if i can’t find a rule to disqualify you i’ll just DQ you for that.

I hear what you are saying, but, the intent was to curb gun crime. The dissent cites numerous statistics showing it has worked. Of course, it has not ended gun violence. But, the numbers are compelling.

My issue, however, is the process in this case. A law, in effect for 33 years, showing tangible results, was rendered unconstitutional, based not on real world evidence, not on a change in circumstances, not on a change in technology, not on a change in societal norms, not on a change in facts, but, hypotheticals. That bothers me.

one could argue that neutering laws that stood for 33yr is itself monkeying with the process, in which case i’d agree with you. but, was this law ever tested? if it was tested and upheld a number of times, then it’s messing with the process to disregard repeated legal opinions. but sodomy laws, and miscegeny laws, stood for decades or centuries. laws that are clearly archaic, or that don’t have a legacy of precedents upholding their constitutionality, shouldn’t benefit simply from tenure.

So you have Robbery
Armed robbery without threats of violence (not sure how that works)
Armed robbery where you are afraid they might shoot you.

I can see where the confusion exists.

Well, we have had this law in existence for 33 years and there hasn’t seemed to be any confusion. I thought it was well known by the public at large that, under federal law, when you commit a crime, and use a gun, the punishment is going to be enhanced. Now, to be fair, I have known that my entire life, but, my father was an FBI agent the majority of my life, so, perhaps I was exposed to more than the common person.

I thought gun=enhanced penalty was know, but maybe not what the law was called. I believe there was research that criminals knew this and did not bring guns to burglaries.

So couldn’t armed robbery, burglary etc just be given higher sentences to make up for the law being removed?