If the wind is not blowing measurably and you are traveling 20mph, there is essentially a 20mph wind against you that you have to overcome.
You’re probably right, why a couple of pro cyclists who you might have heard of are making some interesting demands.
saunaking - you are vastly underestimating your own speeds affect on apparent wind speed.
yaw over 15 degrees is very rare
What am I doing wrong? In this example yaw >15 67% of the time
(I got this from the hed website link styrell posted earlier in the thread)
Rider speed = 30kph (18.6mph)
Wind speed = 15kph (9.3mph)
I think those are reasonable (Maybe I should have adjusted cyclist speed so it would be faster with headwind and slower with tailwind - but that wouldn’t change any yaw numbers, just relative wind speeds i think)
Because riding forward makes it a headwind. Our bodies and bikes aren’t sails, Wind has to be almost directly behind you to make you faster vs no wind. The why has to do with pressures and vortices and bernoulli effect, etc. It seems like wind even slightly behind you should help but it doesn’t and that really sucks
Styrrell
I wear a uniform Carl you wouldn’t trust my statement ? I am here to protect and serve you. I would never mislead you into harms way.
The mistakes you made are:
A) 9.3 mph is a pretty high average windspeed.
B) 18.6 is a bit low (on average) average bike speed for racing
C) The probablitiy that the wind will be at 90 degrees for an entire ride is very low. If you add up all of the yaws you list the average is probably close to 15, even with the errors above.
Styrrell
edit: look at the hed windspeed map. right now the high wind across the entire country is 25, but the vast amount of the country is 3-6 mph. This is measure somewhat above ground level (where wind is faster) and in open areas, (where wind is faster). Right now the vast majority of the riders in this country are looking at a windspeed of about 2-4 mph.
For the vast majority of races, at any level, fitness, luck, and guile, will be the major factors. Every once in a while small differences in equipment will make THE difference. It happens, but its seldom enough that I wouldn’t go overboard on anything equipment related.
Styrrell
No one thing will ever make THE difference…THE difference is the sum of your decisions and your fitness. I don’t think anyone has ever said equipment is THE difference…just a small part of the big picture where everything makes A difference.
The rider carl is referring to seems to have bought into a slogan. “Marginal gains,” you may have heard it?
The mistakes you made are:
A) 9.3 mph is a pretty high average windspeed.
B) 18.6 is a bit low (on average) average bike speed for racing
C) The probablitiy that the wind will be at 90 degrees for an entire ride is very low. If you add up all of the yaws you list the average is probably close to 15, even with the errors above.
Styrrell
edit: look at the hed windspeed map. right now the high wind across the entire country is 25, but the vast amount of the country is 3-6 mph. This is measure somewhat above ground level (where wind is faster) and in open areas, (where wind is faster). Right now the vast majority of the riders in this country are looking at a windspeed of about 2-4 mph.
Thanks, I am going to try this out again tomorrow
I will adjust the rider speed with wind direction so its faster with tailwind, slower with headwind.
I am surprised the windspeed i chose might be high - I thought i was being conservative. Could it be because the current windspeeds shown on that map are late at night when everything is calm?
Anyway, the avg yaw in my example turned out to be 19. I will post back tomorrow using some numbers that more closely relate to my conditions and faster, ‘racing’ paces.
Jesus dude, why the attitude?
Yes I’ve heard of marginal gains and don’t believe I’ve posted anything that would lead you or anyone to belive that I don’t believe that maximizing every you can will lead to better performance.
Now have you heard of not being a dickwad?
Styrrell
Right now the majority of the country might be at 3-6mph at altitude, but I can tell you that spring and fall, we get wind that is much, much faster than that on the ground. Late fall/ early winter we will have gusts strong enough to knock over newspaper dispensers. Maybe that’s just here on the front range, but we have a lot of riders here.
The mistakes you made are:
A) 9.3 mph is a pretty high average windspeed.
B) 18.6 is a bit low (on average) average bike speed for racing
C) The probablitiy that the wind will be at 90 degrees for an entire ride is very low. If you add up all of the yaws you list the average is probably close to 15, even with the errors above.
Styrrell
edit: look at the hed windspeed map. right now the high wind across the entire country is 25, but the vast amount of the country is 3-6 mph. This is measure somewhat above ground level (where wind is faster) and in open areas, (where wind is faster). Right now the vast majority of the riders in this country are looking at a windspeed of about 2-4 mph.
9.3mph is a very tame wind for the midwest. Almost considered a nice, windless day if its under 10mph.
That’s why HED3s are godsends out here. They work better at high yaws (according to HED’s data, and my experience) than spoked wheels, be they Zipps or OEMs.
no attitude intended.
9.3mph is a very tame wind for the midwest. Almost considered a nice, windless day if its under 10mph.
That’s why HED3s are godsends out here. They work better at high yaws (according to HED’s data, and my experience) than spoked wheels, be they Zipps or OEMs.
Can someone please confirm that? I thought I kept reading that Hed3s were only really good at high speed/ low yaw…
keep in mind that the windspeeds reported on the weather report are at 10m. Ground level windspeeds can be half that.
Believe me, I’m not saying you will never do a race where the average yaw is greater than 15, but if you are going to have 1 TT bike aim for 0-15. In a perfect (well chaep bike) world we would have 2 or 3 TT bikes for various conditions, but thats just not realistic for most.
Plus one of the sucky things is that when its really really gusty is when you don’t want to be on a super aero bike. Its like a deep front wheel. The deeper the better in side winds up until the wind gets so high you can’t control it.
Styrrell
I suppose that makes sense. I will also admit that with most races being during the meat of summer, in the morning, race-day wind is almost non-existent in my (short) tri experience. It just annoys me when certain people here act like fear of wind, or issues in wind, are imagined or the signs of a terrible rider. I can also get into trouble by checking the weather and seeing windspeed that’s on the margin of what I’ll ride in… in town. Then I get outside of town and start getting chucked back and forth by swirling wind, without deep wheels. It can definitely be an issue for early and late season training here.
Our bodies and bikes aren’t sails, Wind has to be almost directly behind you to make you faster vs no wind.
I’m curious what would happen if you had a quartering, e.g. 115 degree, tailwind. Would the effect of the resulting relative wind be the same or less than if there was no wind?
I forget what the exact formula is and it depends on your bike speed, but from what I remember in an artical wherethey had charts, that was about the tipping point.
Styrrell
You will never win or lose a road race based on how aero your frame is.
Bullcrap. The next time you go race, I’m going to glue flat plates facing the wind all over your frame and then see if you still think that.