S-works shiv disc 2019 is here

[GreenPlease]

Hey guys,

That’s Keith, he’s the lead engineer on the bike (has done a fantastic job) and was on the road to Kona when he wrote to answer some of your questions. Between Cam Piper, Keith, Chris Yu, SuperDave, and me, we’ll set some time to connect w the crew on this thread to answer your questions. This bike is a whole new approach aerodynamically in many areas - no single chart or single data point will answer it all definitively.

We’re all super excited about this new machine and everything it delivers. It challenges much of the status quo for aero - the ST defines so much of the speed versus everything we as an industry believe the DT has done in the past. The fork is designed to sail - very different than the low frontal area forks of our past (and present). The DT is designed for storage, handling, and weight and have concentrated our surface area where speed is gained most on other areas of the bike.

5 years after the Win Tunnel we’ve learned that HOW you carry your fuel matters MORE than the differences between most frame modules. We were conservative in saying 1 minute over Kona versus our absolute best configs. Versus the average? Much much more. Over the coming months, we can get more data from the tunnel to answer your specific questions.

Can’t wait for the race this weekend! Will be an awesome Kona.

Mark

Thanks for chiming in Mark. I’m curious, how does the fork affect the handling of the bike? To my eye it appears that about an equal amount of surface area is both ahead of and behind the steering axis so my gut says “neutral” but I’m curious to hear your take. For a flat kit, I assume the idea would be to stash a tube, CO2, etc in a bag and stuff that in the DT under the Fuelsage?

Also… and this is important… what exactly does your “fastest Shiv” look like? Standard Shiv basebar? Which front brake?

[guillermoD]

Hey Mark, how much faster is this new Shiv the bike alone compared to the new Venge?

[Rocket_racing]

Very interesting bike. Love it or leave it, the most interesting development in bikes is happening in tt. I love the engineering.

Aero:

The claimed aero gains, or lack of, is a bit of a hint in my book:

If it beat the main competators in the wind tunnel, i suspect they would be announcing it with bells on. Instead, what i expect to see is good high yaw performance, but the low yaw stuff will likely be only “good” (so they will need to do as the felt ia did and start winning at kona to help marketing).

I have no doubt it is fast however, but as was touched on before, their selling point will be it’s aero performance with 1.5L water or “ready to ride”. I am sure it is faster than another bike without integrated hydration (but 1.5l of bottles on board). Can’t show that in a wind tunnel as there are too many permutations to compare. The sepecialized may have a hard/complex marketing sell, short of a kona win.

The fork:

i would like to get a better look. The previously mentioned idea that the fork wings may help prep the air for the knees is an interesting one. If it did, the low yaw data with a rider might be impressive, even if the low yaw riderless data was medeocre.

Hydration:

the rear hydration is interesting. It is a very race day ready feature (like tubular tires, great if you have loads of time, or a mechanic). The cleaning and routing must be a bit of work (i stopped using a camel back on mtb for that reason). I also figure that the sucking must be tough, and get a bit tougher once the resevoir gets lower.

I suppose if a rider mounts an empty horizonal bottle cage on the bars… uses the hydration resevoir for the first half the race, then uses bar mounted bottles grabbed from stations for the remainder, it might give an advantage. Mind you, there would only be drinking the old fashined way at that point. And refilling the resevoir on the go would seem hard and or slow.

Obviously, rides where 1.5l water is needed (and nothing extra) would be a sweet spot for the bike. I guess that somes down to how long, how hot, where are the refreshment stations for a specific race.

Storage box:

At first i thought it might be too far away to be convenient, but i think a rider could blindly grab from it in the aero position. Mind you, they could do the same from a top tube box also… . Not sure it would be an advantage, but i guess one would need to try to decide. I figure the top tube would be preferrable.

Discs:

The total drag is down vs the old model (marketing says 1 minute savings, but at what, presumably weighted, yaw angle???), but i will assume that the discs hampered how much better they could make it. And i understand that discs hurt more at high yaw anyway. I would like to see cfd images at different yaw.

One cool thing about discs is that it has appeared to allow the engineers play with different ideas now that they are not anchored to a rim brake design. It is interesting to see the initial design diversity with the disc tr bikes amongst brands before a more formal concensus is achieved (like we see with most aero road bike shapes now… thanks uci!).

Asthetics:

Overall, i am unsure of the asthetics. The big fin is bold, and kind of cool. The fork looks interesting also.

[Shambolic]

Thanks for all the info. But if you are either sponsored by Specialized or directly employed by them you should indicate as much here. Mostly for your own benefit so this apparently “good” information is distinguishable from the pages of speculation.

Yes I work for specialized. I am here to help.

The hydration system is a carbon fiber reservoir off the back that receives a custom bladder system. This is to allow removal and cleaning. Obviously you do not want to be drinking out of raw carbon!

The lid does pop off. Refilling on the fly is possible but it’s not a function that we claim due to each riders different setups and bike handling skills.

Many of our pros in Kona will be refilling their systems on the fly, but it’s very individual.
So you are terming it a bladder but it is effectively a liner of the box with the large lid on top of the box as the opening?

[imswimmer328]

Check tim don’s instagram
.

[uucee]

what exactly does your “fastest Shiv” look like? Standard Shiv basebar? Which front brake?Yup, it would be great to know what “clean cable routing” is exactly:
Compared to the fastest 2011 Shiv setup possible (Fuelcell, slammed bars, clean cable routing, BTA bottle), the Shiv Disc is nearly a minute faster over the Kona course.From https://specialized.com/new-shiv .

[Former_User]

Is the bigger picture proprietary everything with no real option to customize and big repair costs if you break something? Because I understood that the second they showed the fork.

It’s an elite bike, meant to be ridden by elites. It’s like a car company investing in F1. I know I can’t buy their F1 car, but I might enjoy some trickle down to my road-legal model. I appreciate the effort, and look forward to the bits that trickle down to the $5 to $7k range, which means $2k used in four to five years, at which point I might buy one if I haven’t yet won the lottery.

[BryanD]

I’m not entertaining any more of this nonsense. It’s a removable bladder with a straw. Move on.

[TheStroBro]

Attempting to refill that on the fly is going to induce a lot of crash replacements frames.

Downtube fuselage was fine, they could have also designed a BTA like front end since there were Specialized Athletes adding the PD integrated unit.

[GatorRacer]

Hey all, tons of good questions here. I will get to as many of them as I can but it will be a bit slow since we are here in Kona answering inquiries on the ground. Also, uploading hi-res while mobile is a bit more tedious on ST.

Anyway, there are 5 major components of the Fuelcell hydration system:
Reservoir - this is the carbon fiber airfoil shaped container that is attached to the FrameBladder - this fluid bladder is has an integral lid as well as exitportCap - this is the the silicone plug that seals into the bladder’s kidStraw - this tubing is self explanatory and comes in at 150cm and can be cut to likingBite Valve - Sef explanatory, but the new valve is 1-way to reduce hydration pull thru effort.
The big confusion on ST i see right now is that the bladder and lid are integral (1pc). The cap is a separate piece that has a tether and is removable while riding. The Lid is attached to the bladder (basically a trim ring that overlaps the reservoir top edge) and is not removable while riding.

To fill on the fly, you can pop off the cap and squirt squirt squirt…Or you can get creative (watch for some custom athlete solutions on Saturday!)

Here below is Tim Don filling on the fly. The cap is off and hanging off the backside (look closely) and the lid is still sitting on the reservoir which is supporting the internal bladder.

[GatorRacer]

Another point to clarify is that the one of the pics floating around of Sarah True earlier was actually of a prototype system. Below you can see the 2 versions:

1 was a prototype zip top closure (blue) while we worked on the design of the lid and cap system. This allowed us to test the capacity and drinkability as well as routing of the system, ahead of the injection molded top closure system. The zip closure system is not able to be refilled and was positioned loosely within the reservoir.

The 2nd system is the production system (black) which the athletes are using now. It consists of the integral bladder with lid, and the removable cap with tether as shown. This is whats in the Tim Don picture above.

Here is a picture of the system on the bike, partially pulled up so you can see the interface. You can also see in the Seat Stay area where we enter the frame. There is a permanently bonded conduit to allow the straw to enter and exit the bike free of any restrictions, at all times. This is what allows easy cleaning and routing.

[BryanD]

Thanks for showing pictures! I love the creativity and design that went into this.

[GatorRacer]

Attempting to refill that on the fly is going to induce a lot of crash replacements frames.

Downtube fuselage was fine, they could have also designed a BTA like front end since there were Specialized Athletes adding the PD integrated unit.

Hey StroBro…we agree that downtube nutrition is a good idea. We just determined it to be much more efficient to have the hydration in the rear and the solid nutrition on the downtube so it was more easily reached while in the aero position. Further, the Fuelcell in the DT is removable allowing storage of tubes, co2, and levers below the fuelcell in space that would otherwise be unused.

To make the rear airfoil capable of holding tools, etc…would have not been as aero as Dr. Speed mentioned in the launch video.

Lastly, we do have a BTA solution! There is a custom extension based mount that allows a bottle cage between the arms or a computer mount. This will allow you to take on any course bottle at any aid station just like before. Nutrition needs are very specific, especially at full Iron distance so we wanted to give flexible solutions such as TT rivets, ST rivets, BTA rivets…Fuel On!

If you really want to, you can forget the food and tools and stuff an osprey bladder in there. Send pics so I can show our product manager!

[rruff]

Drag with a rider on will be competitive at 0 yaw with a P5(x) and will beat it at >15°.

What’s “competitive” mean exactly? And >15deg isn’t a viable design point.

[Diabolo]

Just wanted to thank you for bringing back my old bike stream

Where’s the seat shifter?

[gymrat]

I guess watching where you are going in or near an aid station is not important.

[uucee]

To make the rear airfoil capable of holding tools, etc…would have not been as aero as Dr. Speed mentioned in the launch video.How did the 2011 Fuelcell in the seat tube cage mount do in the tunnel? Looks like it’s still almost a perfect fit

[mrlobber]

The fork:

i would like to get a better look. The previously mentioned idea that the fork wings may help prep the air for the knees is an interesting one. If it did, the low yaw data with a rider might be impressive, even if the low yaw riderless data was medeocre.

Is there any serious manufacturer nowadays, who still tests bikes without a rider onboard?

[Chris_Mint]

Hey Keith and Mark,

Thanks for answering some of our questions. That is great support.

I was wondering were and when we could see the new Shiv if we are not in Kona.
Are there any specific stores (especially in Europe) where we could see the bike before we have to decide to order one or not?

Thanks

[Pyrenean_Wolf]

Drag with a rider on will be competitive at 0 yaw with a P5(x) and will beat it at >15°.

What’s “competitive” mean exactly? And >15deg isn’t a viable design point.

I guess we will have realistic aero figures and comparisons when several other disk models are available (P5, P3, IA, Canyon, …) and an independent study will be made comparing (some of) these new disk models with (some of) existing disk models (P5X, Dimond, new Shiv, …) and (some) rim models (P5, P3, IA, Canyon, …), a bit like the “Tri bike in the age of peak aero” study, including :

• equivalent configs (same volume of water, gels and bars, repair kit, tooth brush, shower gel, credit card holder…)
• same rider with same position and same helmet
• various yaw
• in a single wind tunnel, same wind speed

I think this new Shiv bring interesting aero solutions. And I like the look. It is not pretty, but it look efficient, impressive, innovative.

No comment on practicability of bladder, refilling, etc… this is personal choice.

The elephant in the room, for me, at this stage (apart from the price, so let´s say the second elephant in the room…) is why such a shy announcement regading aero perf ?
I’m sure Spe engineer are good, they brought very innovative solutions (at the expense of look and cost ?), they should have got a significant gain over old Shiv, and they have nearly nothing… 1mn on 180km is error margin.

A problem with disk brake aero ?
All new solutions (new fork, new “bladder sail”, …) just to compensate disk drag ?
Probably every brand will have this problem ?

At this stage, I consider disk brake is nice for security, but maybe not a step in the right direction for aero ? Making aero perf announcement difficult for new disk models ?

Any results from fair comparaison between same model with rim brake vs disk brake ?