Running w/ LESS support/control in your shoes

I am curious about Brooks T3’s. I am a neutral runner and think I could do well with something very lightweight with very little support. My concern would be with the thickness of the sole. I do 90% of my running on trails, which are very rocky where I live. Do you think running on this terrain would be possible with something like Brooks T3’s.

If anybody has any suggestions for a very neutral shoe with a sole that is durable enough for long distance trail running I would love to hear about it. I currently run in brooks adrenaline trails for anything longer than abour 10m’s and otherwise in brooks adrenalines (road) and 2090’s for shorter distances.

I fall in the no-mans land. 5’8’’ 150, muscular build; former 100, 200m collegiate track runner and soccer player.

Will I ever lose the 10-15 lbs to look like a marathoner, no, plus I do triathlon, so I need a little more muscle for the swim and bike.

It is amazing to see some of the people who finish very fast marathons and what they look like. Most people who come to my races are amazed at how “normal” the people look. I think is what gives the masses the belief they can do it too.

“Emphasis on WALK, I’d presume. Big difference. Again, life expectancy is about 2-3 times what it was 300 years ago. 300 years is NOTHING in terms of a complex joint adapting to a new challenge”

I don’t think running is a new challenge. The marathon is based off of legend from 490 b.c., so running long distances has been around long before stability shoes or maybe even shoes. Are those shoes good for some people, yes, but I from what I have heard from the local running shoe expert/store owner is that the majority of people do not need them. Not proof, but good enough for me

And I’m 5’8’’ 150, forefoot runner. I was a former 100m, 200m, long jumper in college. I still land mid to fore foot and have no problem adapting to flats for longer distances. Am I basing my assumption off of me personally, sure, so maybe my pool of data is extemely limited.

I maybe also errored in thinking most people on this site weren’t 6’10 or +250lbs?

Not being a jerk, but who can’t find grass to run on?

I am curious about Brooks T3’s. I am a neutral runner and think I could do well with something very lightweight with very little support.
If anybody has any suggestions for a very neutral shoe with a sole that is durable enough for long distance trail running I would love to hear about it. I currently run in brooks adrenaline trails for anything longer than abour 10m’s and otherwise in brooks adrenalines (road) and 2090’s for shorter distances.

The T3 (soon to be the T4) isn’t designed for that kind of work – it’s really made for the track but could be worn on asphalt. Unless you have very tough feet, the rough terrain of a trail will likely bother you in a shoe that light.

I’d suggest the “Lightweight Performance” category of shoes from most manufacturers, but not in their “trail” or “ACG” sections. Mizuno Precision, Brooks Burn, New Balance 900 would all be good bets. Asics DS-Trainer is a little heavier and more supportive, but would also work.

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
Park Slope, Brooklyn

What’s amazing is that no-mans land(say 2:35 - 2:55) has not really changed that much despite the HUGE increase in the number of people running marathons. I always check the time for the 100th finisher at the NYC marathon and it has stayed in the 2:40 - 2:45 range for over 10 years. In that time the number of people doing the race has more than tripled!

I was recently introduced at a dinner party with a number of recreational runners as being a “top ranked marathon runner”, with my 2:41 PR. I never really thought of myself as this, as my best time is no where near being Top Ranked, in my eyes. I have met World Record holder Paul Tergat and he’s run 35 minutes faster than me. Now that’s a top ranked marathon runner!!

Fleck

Great responses here.

I’m not sure I understand the difference between motion control and stability. Is it a continuum from MC to stability to neutral to flats? And I definitely don’t trust local shops to tell me what I need. I have MC Asics now, as suggested by someone who saw me briefly jog back and forth heel-striking hard (before I learned Chi Running form).

I have really flat feet, if that matters. I notice that my feet flare out slightly, though as I’ve changed technique that has lessened. Now I land on the midfoot, and feel like I’m gliding (relatively speaking).

Perhaps I should just dump some $ on neutral shoes first and give it a shot.

I’m not sure I understand the difference between motion control and stability. Is it a continuum from MC to stability to neutral to flats? I have really flat feet, if that matters. I notice that my feet flare out slightly, though as I’ve changed technique that has lessened. Now I land on the midfoot, and feel like I’m gliding (relatively speaking).

Perhaps I should just dump some $ on neutral shoes first and give it a shot.

You’re not alone – most people don’t understand the features in a shoe and what they’re for. To answer your question, yes, there is a contiunuum between Motion Control, Stability, Neutral/Cushioning, Performance, and Racing Flats. At JackRabbit we stay away from those terms because they’re confusing. We simply say that shoes on this side of the shoe wall have the most features to stabilize your foot, and shoes on the other side of the wall are built for people who can stabilize themselves. The term “cushioned” shoe is particularly misleading because almost all shoes offer some cushioing, and many Motion Control shoes offer more cushioning than many “cushioned” shoes. I prefer the term “Neutral” for that category.

Below I’ll describe a set of features that shoe manufacturers put in shoes to help stabilize your foot. A Motion Control shoe is going to have all of those features, and is going to have “heavy duty” implementations. The less “stable” the shoe, the fewer features it’s going to offer and the less material/construction/etc will go into building those features. When you get to lightweight neutral shoes, all they have is a sole capped with an upper to keep the sole attached to your foot, and the sole is designed to flex with your foot.

**Last Shape: **Motion control shoes have a straight last; a line from the toe to the heel of the shoe follows the expected line of travel of your motion. Most other shoes have a semi-curved last, where the toe area is a curved a little inward from the heel, assuming you’re going to roll onto it. Many racing flats have curved lasts, which really bring the toe inside the heel. Spikes and other track shoes have rigid soles that force you to run on the balls of your feet without your heels ever hitting the ground.

**Medial Posting: **The most common stability feature, this involves putting something in the midsole on the inside of the shoe that resists compression. In Mizunos it’s the shape of their wave. In most other shoes, it’s gray dual density foam, usually coupled with some plastic pieces. The idea is that your body puts more force on the inside of the shoe and less on the outside, so if the inside resists compression more than the outside, the net effect is even compression across your entire foot. In more stable shoes, the posting extends further back under your heel and further forward toward the ball of your foot, and is augmented with more plastic and rigid materials.

**Heel Counter: **A rigid piece of material surrounding the lower part of your heel and attached to the sole, designed to prevent your heel from rotating inside the shoe. A more stable shoe will have a more significant heel counter, which goes higher up the back of your heel and extends further forward (usually on the inside).

**Arch Support: **By building up the arch on the interior of the shoe, the manufacturer does two things at once: they prevent your arch from collapsing, and they prevent the front of your foot from rolling inwards. The kind of support you get from orthotics – either prescription or off the shelf – comes primarily from arch support. Somewhat strangely, more stable shoes often have less arch support because the people who need stable shoes usually have lower or more flexible arches, so arch support feels uncomfortable. Likewise, many more neutral shoes have higher arches because people with strong arches & feet who need neutral shoes often have high arches and like to have something under them to support them.

External Support: I don’t have a good term for this, but in motion control and premium stability shoes you’ll often see a piece of more rigid material on the upper of the shoe to prevent your foot from rolling inward inside the shoe. It often takes the place of an interior arch support.

All of these features exert forces on your foot to try to resist “incorrect” behavior. In an efficient runner, those forces are provided internally by your muscles and ligaments. If you don’t have the muscle strength, you can choose features in your shoes to compensate. Most running stores will help you find a shoe that corrects for your overpronation or other problems. A good running store will help you pick a shoe with only the features you need to counteract your specific weak areas, so the shoe only provides the support you need, and doesn’t provide support that you don’t need.

Hope that helps!

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
Park Slope, Brooklyn

Not being a jerk, but who can’t find grass to run on?


Plenty of grass here, but between people who don’t clean up after their dogs and a couple incidents where I’ve walked over fire ant hills while wearing sandals, I really don’t want to run on the grass barefoot in these parts.

Question: I’m a significant underpronator with very loose (flexible) ankles. Does the underpronation imply a need for some sort of biomechanical correction? Can’t say I’ve ever felt like I’ve hurt myself, even with the marathon thing last winter. But then I always feel like I run too slowly to really mess myself up.

You’ll have a hard time making the argument that the human knee was made for running 20 miles per week into your 60s. On concrete. Consider how much life expectancy has increased within the the past few hundred years, and how much taller and heavier us humans are these days.
This has been studied scientifically. There is NO long term increased risk of arthritis running less than about 50 miles per week. High milage runners (>90 miles/week) showed NO increase in knee arthritis but a very slight increase in hip arthritis. The human knee in fact has evolved to run quite high milage without problem, presuming it is healthy to start out with.

yeah, I wouldn’t run through dog poop or ant hills either!

I’m not a foot or shoe expert, but I’d think to keep it simple, so if it’s not broken don’t fix it!

I just left fleet feet after spending nearly 2 hours trying on shoes. I am a severe overpronater so I have been running in motion control shoes for a while. Well, it turns out that the further away from motion control shoes I was the better. My gait cleaned up more with stability shoes and even more so with nuetral. I ended up leaving with a pair of nuetral shoes…Imagine that, I can feel the road again…I never would have figured that out without the gait analysis. This thread prompted me to figure it out…

Awesome. Thanks, Lee.

How many miles would you expect someone to be able to get out of this type of shoe?

There are so many variables! The more work you ask the shoe to do, the faster the cushioning is going to break down. The more work your body/muscles do, the longer the shoe is going to last. We have some customers who need to replace their shoes every 350-400 miles, and others who can safely put 1000 miles into a pair of shoes.

On the one hand, the lightweight performance shoes are not designed to be as durable as heavier trainers – there’s simply less material there to do whatever work is being asked. However, if that’s the appropriate shoe for you, chances are you’re not asking the shoe to do much work in the first place. If you only need the shoe to protect the soles of your feet from the running surface, you can get a lot of mileage from a pair of shoes.

Trail running will wear down shoes faster than asphalt running, which will wear down shoes faster than treadmill or track running, if that helps.

Lee Silverman
JackRabbit Sports
Park Slope, Brooklyn

Thanks for all the input today. This is interesting stuff. I like the looks of the Brooks Burn and am looking forward to trying them out.

MtTamRnr, do you actually run Mt Tam? I ran the Paradise loop yesterday and thought, “huh, if I got a ride back down the mountain, I wonder how good a run up it would be?”

Yeah, I run on Mount Tam at least once a week although I’ve been spending a lot of time running the trails in the Marin Headlands lately. I had a great rain run on the trails in China Camp in San Rafael yesterday afternoon.

The run from Ross to the East Peak of Tam is about 12M’s round trip with nearly 2,000 feet of climbing on Eldridge Grade. Its a good haul up, but the trail system is awesome. A lot of times I’ll run up Mount Tam and meet my friends at the Tourist Club up top for a few beers and a ride back down…thus the showering in public places thread early today :slight_smile:

I’d imagine you had Paradise to yourself yesterday considering it was pouring. Its beautiful back there.

Yep – not a single bike or runner, and maybe 10 cars. Oh, and lots (LOTS) of rain. It was my first 9ish mile run in at least 21 years (high school track), and only my 15th or so since add the other two sports to the bike… perfect conditions for that.

Lee

I have been running in Asics DS Trainers for years (132lbs, fairly neutral, perhaps slight pronator). I recently started doing some short runs in Nike Frees and they feel so good that I have become convinced to start progressing towards lighter, less supportive shoes. I plan on moving to DS Racers initially. If that goes well, I will move on to the next level. Any suggestions on what shoe to go to after the DS Racer?

thanks, Bill

<I like the looks of the Brooks Burn and am looking forward to trying them out.

Just make sure you go up 1/2 a size. I bought a pair in a size 10(which is my shoe size),and I lost 2 toenails,and had tons of blisters.

My concern would be with the thickness of the sole. I do 90% of my running on trails, which are very rocky where I live. Do you think running on this terrain would be possible with something like Brooks T3’s.

These shoes are not so great on rough trails. You run the risk of bruising the sole of your foot. Maybe something like the Fastwitch (Saucony?) or Mizuno Precision. The Precision is my “backup” shoe for trails or for being on my feet all day.