Running training for 1/2 IM

Triathlon Forum
1

The generic program i am following has intervals on the bike weekly and the run alternates b/w easy running one week and the next with one a week run of 1min 5Kpace 1 min marathon pace for 30 mins. there is the typical long run and bike and swimming, wts each week too.

my question is this:
i am used to doing track repeats that last 90secs(400m) to 4 1/2 mins(1200m) but maybe 5-6 total, for a total v02 max time of about 15mins. i have read this approach on the program may be better but wonder if it will help me with sustained running as much as tempo runs for 20-30mins or vo2 max track workouts.

it was written by D3 and they know much more than i. it just makes me a little nervous to do one speed session per week running and no tempo runs. any thoughts?

2

have you discussed this with your coach? my initial thought on reading your post is that you should not be nervous about the plan you are using. if you have concerns you should bring them to the attention of the coach as soon as possible. one of the most important things in the athlete/coach relationship is having confidence in the coach and the plan. maybe just having the coach explain the rationale behind the plan would help turn your thoughts around and remove your doubts.

3

That run workout sounds like a killer - you’d be running close to a 5K at 5 K pace with minimal rest. Its a lot harder than a 20-30 min tempo run. Does it really matter if your quality is this vs. tempo vs. VO2 max intervals? I doubt it matters at all. Its good to mix it up and have fun. You have a program - follow it. One of the frequent mistakes people make is not following their program - they have doubts - read another program/system and switch every couple months…there is no magic work-out and nobody knows which work-outs work best (plus its different for different people).

What matters is frequency, consistency, and logging miles with some quality thrown in - and pray you get to the start healthy and then being smart enough to execute well.

Good luck.

Dave

4

I would not do that run workout. At least not for any significant period of time. I am sure it will be difficult. Running barefoot on broken glass is also difficult. The question is will it be difficult in a beneficial way? What specifically will that workout develop? More importantly, what is the recovery time for a workout like that going to be like? I have a hard time seeing that fit into a well-designed training plan. Obviously, I am not your coach though.

5

I think we have different ideas on some things. I agree with you on the importance of frequency and consistency. I also think it is a big mistake to switch plans. However, I think it matters a great deal what your quality is. Tempo vs. VO2 max intervals vs. something else makes a big difference. Your body is going to recover different from each of them. They are going to induce different physiological adaptations. Depending on the distance you are racing and how far from the race you are in your training will decide what is appropriate for you. Hopefully, this is what your coach considers when they draw up your plan. This might be the case here, I just have a hard time seeing it.

6

Nothing wrong with that workout.

As for no tempo runs, “it depends”…

7

i agree that there is ‘nothing wrong with that workout’. however, the op doesn’t really make it clear but it sounds like this is the only run intensity workout in the program and is repeated every other week. not knowing the entire plan, the target race, the op’s fitness level and race goals, it is impossible to know whether it is the ‘right’ workout, if such a thing exists. that is why i suggest discussion with the person behind the plan to get some background on why it is structured as it is. my concern is only that the op doesn’t appear to have confidence in the plan and that doesn’t bode well. since it is a generic plan it may be necessary to tweek it a bit to suit the athlete and give him the confidence needed to perform at his best. no prewritten training plan is perfect for everyone.

8

Agree 100%.

I believe we have met before…

9

Shorty, I generaly like to refer people to these charts:

http://i5.tinypic.com/6wmsjms.jpg

This is a graphic to show how you should balance your training according to your race goals. Notice that if your race distance will have you completing it in ~20 minutes, that you’ll want a healthy mix of speed, v02max, and threshold training. The longer your goal race is, the more important endurance and threshold running becomes and the less important speed at V02max become.

I have since made some midifications to this concept, mainly being that the times shown above should be doubled for triathlon training. ie…an Oly that has you completing the run in 50 minutes should be treated like a stand alone race that is 1:40 (so you’d use 1:40 on the chart above).

Here is a table to give some more concrete numbers:

http://i30.tinypic.com/2vb4n11.jpg

Assuming the run portion of the half would take you around 2 hours, I’d recommend ~1.5% of your total traininf distance to be v02max while 6.3% would be threshold training, and very very little speed.

These are ball park figured and the math gets a little confusing for most people. However, it looks like the workout provided above is doing exactly that for you. It is provided a good bit of threshold training with just the right mix of V02max training in the middle of it. I have never tried that workout before, but it looks like a good way to kill two birds with one stone.

Jack Daniels’ first book advocating doing tempo runs right at MLSS (1 hour race pace). Since that book came out the message boards lit up about his philosophy of training at that pace and no slower or faster. He had answered many questions and eventually came out with a second edition addressing the point.

For all intents and purposes, the training should be done in that zone AND a little faster AND a little slower. At most levels of running a 20 minute tempo run will yield similar results to a 60 minute run done at marathon pace.

In my personal opinion, for HIM training, I prefer doing 60 minute MP runs over 20 minute tempo runs since the end result is similar, but the MP runs are a little more event specific. Having said that, I will still do some 20 minute tempos (maybe once every 3 weeks I’ll replace the longer one). The workout shown above is another one I’ll throw in occasionally to mix in just a little bit of intensity. To be honest, though, I did them as 80 sec at 5K pace followed by 100 sec at MP, which is a little easier than what is prescribed above. I’d never done it for more than 4 miles which is 24 minutes.

So, to answer your question:

  1. yes - it is a good HIM workout, but may be a little too intense
  2. I personally recommend alternating in 60 minute MP runs as well as 20 minute tempos.
10

Running 6 min miles for 20 minutes or some 5:30 pace longer repeats or some 5:00 short repeats (for example)…yes they will “target” slightly different systems yet its all shades of gray. You can spend time trying to raise your VO2, then you can raise LT as a percent of VO2, and you can work on efficiency one way or another…its fun to play around with and add variety. Plus it can give meaning to work-outs/periodoization…but in the end - I doubt it matters - esp. for one phase of training. Here is a guy with a (probably) short plan to a half IM - who knows what he’s been doing? Now if he had a coach and a solid 3 year plan - we could argue about different phases and what he should target when…which makes me wonder if I should have a better plan for the next 2 years…but for 1 phase - does it matter?

Dave

11

Assuming 304months of training, Vo2 vs LT does matter. VO2 max is not as trainable as LT. If you spend the same amount of time training each you will see marginal improvements in VO2 max and large improvements in LT. Furthermore, the workouts required to train VO2 max are very demanding in terms of recovery and will hamper the rest of your training. Finally, VO2 max can be trained in a month or so before the event and I have heard little reason to train it beforehand.
I also don’t see how this workout will train VO2 max very well. The work to recovery interval is not nearly sufficient for you to go as hard as is needed in each of the work intervals. You will be doing a total of 15min in zone 5 with 1:1 “recovery” intervals in the upper zone 3 region (marathon pace is not exactly restful). It seems like that will pass the point of fitness gained from the workout vs. recovery time required after the workout.
I am new to structured training and most of the knowledge I have has come from Friels books so maybe someone can point out the value in this workout. I am just stating how I am thinking about this and would welcome a differing view point.

12

Daniels says 5K pace is about I pace (slightly less for us slower runners whose 5K > 14-15 min) which he says trains VO2 max and should correspond to close to max HR. He’s doing 15 short intervals at I pace with work=rest and a faster rest running rate than “recovery” or “easy”. Given the short intervals of work - seems like the faster running for recovery would keep HR up and allow the runner to spend more time close to VO2 max. You can play with intervals by varying work time, rest time, and speed of each. This work-out may be good for teaching the body to handle speed changes and teaching the body to recover at marathon pace? Seems like an elite would need to be able to handle a surge - yet recover while still running fast…maybe it would be good for them? I think it would be a hard work-out but not that over the top.

I think for us VO2 max is closer to mile pace but how can I argue with Daniels?

How can VO2 max not be trainable? Elites aren’t born with VO2 max’s of 80…if you increase muscle mass, increase mitochondria/blood flow, increase muscle recruitment, drop fat…your VO2 max will go up and all of those are very trainable…you may be able to increase LT as a percent of VO2 max in the short term faster but both are very trainable.

Dave

13

I can agree with a good bit of what you said. With swimming I do similar workouts- fast paced efforts with recovery at “race” pace. I do these because at times in races it is helpful to turn on some speed but mostly because it helps me mentally to know I can recover while still swimming. I have never considered it for running though. I don’t often think of needing to deal with speed changes. I try to hit consistent splits and always thought this was a better (aka faster) race strategy.

The one thing I do disagree on is the trainability of VO2 max. I thought for most of us, the ability of the heart to pump blood to the muscles was the primary limiter, as opposed to the ability of the muscles to extract and use the oxygen in the blood. So you can increase muscle recruitment, mitochondria, and etc but not increase VO2 max since these were not the limiting factor. Improving your hearts ability to pump more blood is not easy. I also thought that while elites aren’t born with Vo2 max’s of 80, their genetics and naturally higher VO2 max’s is part of the reason they have become elites.

All good things for me to think about though and thanks for the input. If you do the workout, please let me know how it goes Shorty. Maybe one of these days I will just give it a try and see.

14

I thought that the main limiter for VO2max was muscle uptake and utilization of O2. I thought rarely was the lungs or heart a limiting factor…for young (<50)/healthy people.

Dave

15

For some reason, this thread occurred to me last night (taper madness I suppose). In my build period I did a workout similar to this one. It was what Friel calls a criss-cross interval- going back and forth from zone 3 (marathon pace) to zone 4 (10K-ish pace).
It was a great workout, sorry I disagreed with you on it. I guess I should have gotten off ST and just done the workout earlier.

16

i am not sure, but do you think that 400s @ 90 seconds is a little bit short for half marathon training?

i was doing this sort of thing for 5-10k training. i was thinking about some mile repeats for half marathon within HIM training? i havent figured out pacing yet.

17

I am not a run (or triathlon) training expert, as evidenced by the fact I was wrong in my estimation of this 5K/marathon paced run workout. Maybe daveinmammoth or BarryP could answer this question better? I have not personally done 400s for quite a while.

18

I am no coach or expert, mediocre runner at best. I did read all the books that are being referenced here.
First, follow the plan the coach has provided for you. Have trust in it.
On the other hand, I can understand your lack of comfort with absence of threshold running, continuous or cruise intervals. I would feel the same way. As best as I understand for my level runner (19:30 5k, 1:35 1/2), threshold training is the best bang for the buck. Even applying the principle of specificity oh 1/2 split as a part of HIM, it is about muscular endurance and not slowing down as the race progresses, not so much about speed. Therefore I train lthr a lot trough cruise ints, 30-45min threshold runs, with longer ones more at marathon pace as one poster indicated above. I found that to be the most benefit vs. recovery cost. I have not done a single VO2 max session this year.
Jack Daniels book recommends VO2 max ints at 90sec-5min in length, where it takes at least 2min to elevate the system to VO2 max level.
Again, I am not a good runner, but this purely my angle to it.
Stick with your plan, establish some testing protocols, test the progress with that workout as a part of the whole plan, have fun with it and don’t be afraid to tweak it in coordination with your coach.