As training for power takes off, I am hoping to see a running power meter.
In the meantime - has anyone tried to use the PowerCal for running?
Thanks
Chris
PowerCal just takes your HR to estimate your power output and suffers from all the pitfalls of using a HRM.
I’d like to see a power meter for running, but for now, RPE and pace is all you need.
I don’t know if this is possible - yet, but it would be very interesting to use one.
I once lost about 30 lbs in weight and obviously my times over usual training routes improved dramatically, but I have no idea if my power improved or remained constant and I only got faster due to getting lighter.
I assume a running power meter would have some major technical issuers to overcome.
discussed a bit here quite a while ago
I’m not sure how necessary it is or how it would be any more accurate than normalize graded pace using GPS data. You run economy would still cause variation I think. Though measuring run parameters like ground contact tiem and stride length, might be able to accurately adjust it. But again, pace works pretty well.
My question would be, what value is it? You should be running with minimal variability anyway. Because the run is last, leg fatigue is the primary limiter and because you get less cooling compared to the bike, overheating is a 2nd. I don;t see how it would help you pace more accurately than regular pace and watching heart rate variation when there’s a change in grade (not a specific HR, that’s too variable).
Again, the reason power in important on a bicycle, is because HR is too slow to respond and speed/pace is to variable. That’s not as much the case running.
PowerCal just takes your HR to estimate your power output …
AFAICT: HRV, not “just HR”.
Not sure if would provide anything that Normalized Graded Pace can’t provide but then there is this (and yes I backed it) http://www.runscribe.com/
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Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
PowerCal just takes your HR to estimate your power output …
AFAICT: HRV, not “just HR”.
out of idle curiosity, just three weeks ago I applied a two-part first order model to hr as a function of power in some garmin files and it was shocking how good the relationship was.
It was pretty much straight out of engineering controls class.
Say HRtotal = HRbaseline + HRoxy + HRheat
Total heart rate = some baseline number for heart rate, whatever your heart rate is sitting on your bike and not pedaling.
- the heart rate required to flow oxygen to the working muscle cells.
- the heart rate required to move blood into the surface cells to be cooled - I say due to heat but can be thought of as all the heart rate drift rolled into one.
Then do a differential mass or energy balance on the sections as needed
for example for HRoxy
tau1 * dHRoxy(t) / dt = - HRoxy(t)
to make it discrete then
tau1 * = k1 * power(t-1)] - HRoxy(t-1)
repeat with the HRheat and solve the constants and you get pretty good results. The one I have the r^2 goes from 16% with a simple linear fit to 68% with the first order kinetics.
so in this way you can eliminate different baseline heart rates from the system, the idea that some days heart rate is higher than others even before you start and also eliminate monotonic HR drift either up from heat or dehydration or down from having a previous swim effort.
And that doesn’t take into account pure time delays in the system. I need to rework it with pure time delays. Though looking at things I don’t think there is much ore of a completely pure time delay, just looking at other systems.
All that to say, with a first order plus dead time model tuned over a few dozen users, or a few hundred users, you can probably get relatively decent power estimates from hr alone.
Not sure how one would calibrate the power though.
In the end though, not sure why one would want this. To me if HR is good enough, it’s good enough. Just use HR to train with rather than translating it back to power.
Running power meter, isn’t that what the rpm insoles do?
Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
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Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
this.
stop watch and gradient adjusted pace really takes care of most of it. sure there are wind effects, but those are relatively negligible compared to the wind effects in cycling
Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
I am with you 9 times out of 10. This case is the exception, where an athlete has lost weight and improved running times. One might wonder if he did enough training to actually improve physical markers, or if the gain he saw was just because he dont have to carry around all the extra flab. If it is the first, great, carry on. If it is the second, results will be stagnant and something needs to change since BW cant go down forever.
Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
exactly, in term of running, pace doesn’t lie!
If or when a running power meter becomes available would Andrew Coggan’s FTP, TSS, NP etc apply to running, or would a system based on another mathematical model be needed?
I think stages are already working on a prototype 
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Why?
What would you use it for?
Why?
What would you use it for?
People said that about cycling power meters when they first came out.
Cycling is more suited to power monitoring than running I would agree but there are still many useful things you could do with power data.
I have running data going back 30 years. I found weight affected my running speed with my fastest times occurring when at my lightest. And no course I run is entirely flat, I find even very slight undulations affect my pace. I can’t accurately compare my runs over the years because the surfaces and route profiles are different as I have moved around the country over the years and I enjoy running over different routes rather than the same routes or round a track.
I would use the power data for tracking training volume and intensity just as you can with a cycle power meter.
You don’t need a running power meter, but then you don’t need a cycling power meter but a lot of people use them.
Would it change how I train or improve my performance? Probably not but it would be very interesting to compare running power to cycling power and score training sessions.
Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
My heart rate doesn’t match my pace and bringing in RPE doesn’t clear things up. It would be nice to know to be able to grade my run on factors not dependent on heart rate and pace.
I can’t hit a pace or I feel beaten down after a run is it because I worked harder than I thought? What is the effect of running in snow or against wind?
Since I haven’t bought a power meter for my bike obviously it is not a tremendous concern, but then again I like running a whole lot more.
The more I think about it maybe I need something that grades my physical preparedness. If an average day for me is 100 and I wake up grading a 75 should I skip the run and do yoga? OTOH if I grade 125 should I push the pace and distance on my scheduled run? Over time you would be able to see what factors influence your grading – sleep, nutrition, previous days activities, etc.
Wouldn’t a running power meter be a perfect example of solving a problem that doesn’t really exist?
I am with you 9 times out of 10. This case is the exception, where an athlete has lost weight and improved running times. One might wonder if he did enough training to actually improve physical markers, or if the gain he saw was just because he dont have to carry around all the extra flab. If it is the first, great, carry on. If it is the second, results will be stagnant and something needs to change since BW cant go down forever.
OK then…not just a stopwatch…but a stopwatch *and *a scale
Can you buy one for each foot though and get bilateral pedal power?