This is my fifth year racing tri’s and I still can not run to save my life. My swimming and biking are fine but even after training for 2 IM’s I still can’t run faster than a 27min 5k. After losing out to the top 3 this weekend by 15 seconds I decieded that I am going to put myself on a plan and I WILL be faster. I have no delusions of a 18min 5k, I would be happen with a 23-24min run. I was looking at some plans on trainingpeaks.com, anyone have any suggestions or have any ideas that worked for them?
Thanks
Ryan
Run a 5k and be sure the distance and your time is correct.
Go buy the book Daniel’s Running Formula.
Read it (using your 5k time to identify your VDOT value).
Get Faster!
Thank me 
Do you do much open run races (5k,10k)? What is your open 5k race time? Because the cause of your run ailments could be overdoing the bike, or lack of run speed.
How many run miles are you putting in a week, during training? What type of workouts? Are you doing brick work, to get used to the pain of running after biking?
And then, my suggestion to you, to find out what you really can do in a run race would be to take this Autumn, and become a runner. Do road races, local variety 5k or 10k, and “learn” what a faster race pace on a run feels like. If running is your weakness, spending time devoted to developing it will pay dividends long term.
Disclosure on background: hs & (some)college runner, learning how to bike and swim. I know little to nothing about how to train on the bike, or in the pool but am confident in my run training. I am no (paid) coach.
Have you read through any of BarryP’s run training articles? Some really good information there on how to maximize your available training time.
Shane
I imagine the running gurus will chime in with some more advice, but here’s what worked for me:
Run more - I’ve been running every day since Dec, have increase avg weekly miles from 25-40, and have seen open 5k times come down about :90/ mile.
Run easier. I’ve had good luck using http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm to get paces.
Run tempo off the bike on occasion.
And that’s it - pretty simple, Good luck…
Cheers,
Neal
I have never run an open race before so I don’t know what my time would be. I pulled back on my bike a little bit the last few races to see if it would help but to no avail. Even without biking I know that I could not go much faster. I put in around 10-12 miles a week right now during the summer which is alot less than when training for IM but I think my problem is speed. I put in lots of slow miles for IM training the last few years but no speedwork, which is probably part of my problem. Being a clyd 6’ 200lbs I know I will never be gazelle speed but I am sure that I could be much faster than I am. Thanks everone for the input.
I’m not a fan of the run more. At 52 the body can’t stand the pounding.
When I was 42 I took over coaching of a high school cross country team in Tampa, FL. I was an OK runner, maybe a 23 minute 5K, faster if it was a stand alone. Our team sponsored a 5k, and I made a goal of breaking 20 minutes for that race. I trained for 3 months, 3x per week. I did one 5 miler and 2 sprint workouts each week.
The sprint workouts started with 4-6 quarter mile sprints at above race pace with a quarter mile jog in between. That progressed over the 3 months to 1 mile repeats (3-5 of them) at above race pace with the same jog. 3 months later I ran a 19:47.
Just add some sprints to your workouts to gain speed. I can’t see running more, slower, to get faster. I always “think” to go faster think “fast feet”. Worked for me!
your problem is likely not lack of speed training but lack of run volume. 10-12 miles a week isn’t enough to even start thinking about speed work and isn’t enough to maintain what you have. slowly increase your run volume to 3-4x your current volume and 4-6 runs/week and maintain it for a couple of years and several things will happen. your easy pace will get faster, your race will get faster and you will get skinnier. when your race times level out with increased volume, then start thinking speed training.
You sound like me 2 years ago. 10-12 miles won’t do it. Don’t take it hard (I felt kind of insulted at 1st)- you’re “staying in shape” but not really training for the run. I’m still in the “conversion” phase of becoming an endurance athlete, so I know exactly how you feel.
Make up your mind to become a runner. Do an early season marathon (mid-late April is good)- this will make you run all winter, but allow you to recover for tri season. Get up to 50 MPW. Don’t sweat speedwork the 1st year, just do the miles, stretch, and keep healthy! Like others said, the volume will build your engine, and you’ll drop a bunch of weight. In doing this, I’ve gone from 190# at 5’7" to 160#, and still dropping; I took 16 minutes off my HIM run in 9 months. Stay focused, and take a perspective of years- it’ll take awhile. Good luck man- guys like me are doing it and starting to see some success- you can too.
yeah, you’re going to need MORE running… even on a “quality” based program.
I’d go to mcmillan, figure out your “easy” pace and “stamina” pace, and do at a minimum 2 easy runs and 1 stamina run per week… Then start adding mileage to those runs.
Be careful. How much running can your body handle? I have NEVER run more than 20 miles a week. Yes, you MIGHT get faster with more running,
but you also risk injury. Are you big or small boned? If small, I would try to lose some weight first. 200 lbs will pound on your knees.
Also, not everyone was made to run “fast”.
Good luck.
Dave
I spent my first 5 seasons at 6 feet/ 200 pounds before I finally starting eating right and lost weight. Any ways- during this time I ran lots and trained lots. All I did was run easy- 40-45 miles a week. During this time I was sub 3:30 marathon pace, under 20 for a 5k, and a sub 40 minute 10k. Vo2 is 55 which sucks so I am not genetically gifted at all in addition to being fat at the time. Never did a drop of speed or tempo work. Never. Just ran. I think about 90 percent of the speed you can achieve comes from running good volume week in and week out all year long. I think that is the place to start. Run every day. Just run, don’t over think it. You will get faster by just running.
What did you run your IM marathons in? Do you train with a HRM?
Everyone seems to be focused on training more and/or harder. While I generally agree that 10-12 miles/week isn’t going to cut it, I think you need to look towards efficiency and form/technique before trying to pound out tempo runs or intervals on the track. First evaluate how you run…foot strike and placement, stride rate, body position, arm swing.
I think that I have improved my form over the last year, mid/forefoot strike and I do train with a HR & footpod so I can tell pace & HR while running. My IM times were not so great not due more of GI issues than being slow so that’s a hard one to measure. I would say that even though I am right around 200lbs (65lbs less than 5 years ago) I have a large frame so I really don’t see me losing too much more maybe 10-15 at the most. thanks again for everyones input.
You sound like me 2 years ago. 10-12 miles won’t do it. Don’t take it hard (I felt kind of insulted at 1st)- you’re “staying in shape” but not really training for the run. I’m still in the “conversion” phase of becoming an endurance athlete, so I know exactly how you feel.
Oh man…10-12 miles a week isn’t even scratching what is necessary to be fast. 25+ will go a long way. My favorite speed workout is to run a 5k in chunks. 0.5 mile warmup, then 1 mile maxed out (for me ~6:15) then 15-20 seconds stretching, then 0.5 mile jog, then 1 mile maxed out (usually 6:30 for the second one). I was good at running fast for very short intervals (200s, 400s, etc) but couldn’t go fast for 5-8 minutes to save my soul. After doing that for only a few times there was a dramatic improvement in my perceived effort doing 7-10 mile tempo runs.
Here’s my noobish non-coach suggestion for a workout week:
Monday: 7 mile easy run (9-9:30 pace)
Tuesday: 5k with mile repeats per above
Wednesday: 20 mile bike mostly easy (recovery)
Thursday: 4-6 miles with 30 sec to 1 min pickups OR 4-6 mile tempo run
Friday: 20 mile easy bike again
Saturday: 10 miler with a few segments at or slightly above tempo (maybe 20-30%)
Sunday: 20 mile recovery bike
This will get you about 25 miles of running per week and 60 miles on the bike in recovery. Until you are good at running this kind of distance I wouldn’t recommend trying to use running as a recovery. Biking will put a lot less stress on your legs/hips/knees. The easiest way to get faster on the run is to turn yourself into a runner over the winter when it’s too cold or annoying to ride. I spent 3 months over the winter 2 years ago pretty much exclusively running and chopped 1 minute off my average pace. Build up to the distance slowly though…too quick and you’ll hurt yourself. Rule of thumb is 10% per week increase.
I’m not a fan of the run more. At 52 the body can’t stand the pounding.
When I was 42 I took over coaching of a high school cross country team in Tampa, FL. I was an OK runner, maybe a 23 minute 5K, faster if it was a stand alone. Our team sponsored a 5k, and I made a goal of breaking 20 minutes for that race. I trained for 3 months, 3x per week. I did one 5 miler and 2 sprint workouts each week.
The sprint workouts started with 4-6 quarter mile sprints at above race pace with a quarter mile jog in between. That progressed over the 3 months to 1 mile repeats (3-5 of them) at above race pace with the same jog. 3 months later I ran a 19:47.
Just add some sprints to your workouts to gain speed. I can’t see running more, slower, to get faster. I always “think” to go faster think “fast feet”. Worked for me!
And as BarryP would tell you, one or more of a number of things will now happen:
- you will get injured
- you won’t get any faster
- you will get slower
- you will try to run a 10k and be very disappointed
Gotta Agree with TH3, the form is something that you see time after time as an area that can cost you greatly on the run. Here is my take on it,balance a broomstick in between your forefinger and thumb it takes no effort to hold it right, now lean it forward and see if you can still hold it up. This force you feel on your fingers is the same type of force your upper body places on your legs with a leaning forward posture. When you lean your legs are forced to push your body weight up and foward whereas with balanced body position your legs can use all this effort for forward motion. Watch Michael Johnson (Man I’m Getting Old) for an example on body position, straight back, eyes dead ahead and his head maintains the same position throughout his stride. Focus on keeping your back straight and head level and work on smoothing out the peaks and valleys in your stride.
Work on interval training as well. I like to do an upward ladder, 3 min slow 5-6 min fast on the tready a couple of times a week, start off casual and add .5 - 1mph per stage, keep a baseline pace for your slow runs at. Ex: (7 mph slow, 8 fast, 7 slow, 9 fast, 7 slow, 10 fast etc.) at the end of the run reach 90% potential and maintain it for a mile or more. You’ll find this workout adds both speed and endurance, even the slower pace running is tough. Add in a few quick 5K’s and a long run on the weekend and your times will drop substantially. (Spelling gets worse though.)
Good Luck,
JD
I have a response to that…uh…What?
Not sure how all your responses apply to 10 years after that race.
Now…
- I run less to avoid injury. ALL the runners I ran with 2 years ago (they were REAL runners, as in club) were all injured during the 3 years I was there. They ALL run too much and ended up with over use injuries. Please do not start the more is more, more is better debate. Less miles works for me. I’ve NEVER had a running injury!!
2 & 3. I’m fast enough to hold my own in races. I’m slower then the 19:47, but I don’t do stand alone running races, so who cares. I’m still running as fast as I did years ago in triathlons. In the 21-23 range for a 5k during a tri.
- I don’t run 10K’s so I can’t be disappointed : )
as Desert Dude would tell you: you need to run at different intensities to target the different systems all year long.
Less frequent workouts work for a lot of people (a lot of triathletes have injury as a limiter) - they NEED the recovery time. Running doesn’t make you stronger - the recovery afterwards does.
“Less miles works for me. I’ve NEVER had a running injury!!”
And, you’ve most certainly NEVER come close to your potential either.