Running gurus - do we have a consensus?

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m looking for the most tried-and-true effective method of running long for marathon training.

So far, I’ve read that I need to run long & slow, refueling w/ carbs throughout (Higdon, et al.); run long & slow without ingesting carbs, alternating with one that builds to race pace & finishes even faster (McMillian); run long & slow only to 20 miles or 3 hours maximum; run up to 23-25 miles regardless of time. My approach has always been to run 20 miles at 30-45 seconds slower than goal race pace (2-3x maximum), refuelling as I would on race day (gatorade/gels). My gut feeling is that the McMillian approach would be ideal, if primarily for the psychological advantages of running depleted and simulating race conditions, although conventional wisdom dictates that long runs serve the primary purpose of aerobic base expansion without taking a toll on the body.

My question is to the coaches and marathoners who have actually tried the various methods and found one to be superior to all others. Which one works for you or your athletes, and why is it more effective than others?

2

sphere,

I am far from being an elite runner and actually haven’t really developed a good strategy of being fast. I have been thinking these same questions myself lately as I am training for the Marine Corps Marathon and would like to have a decent showing. My goal is to finish in 3:30, which would be about an hour drop from my last marathon (where I had to walk the last 6 miles because of IT Band problems).

I think that there is merit to all of the different progeams out there. Personally, I think that the best thing you can do is run alot. The idea of increased miles is probably the most beneficial but it is not without its risks, which are increased chance of injury and more recovery needed. You also have to avoid the rut of doing everything at an easy pace.

I think I am working effectively towards my goal. Last month, I ran 160 miles doing 6 runs a week. This month, I’ll run 160 miles in 5 runs a week, on the sixth day I’ll add in a long swim or easy bike for cross training. I have 2 key running workouts a week. The first is a long run that I try to keep at about 8:45-9:00 pace for 16+ miles. And the second is a 8-10 mile run that is at a 7:45-8:00 pace.

Honestly, this is about as organized as I have ever been for training. I have always had a more scattered approach to training, where I sort of do what I feel like doing that day as opposed to having specific workouts. Part of my rationale is that this is my leisure activity and I want to enjoy it; so I may as well make it enjoyable. I have noticed some improvement, but whether that is from the increased mileage and run focus, or the more “disciplined” approach (or even a combination) I couldn’t tell you.

Bernie

3

In my eyes, all “methods” are valid. But, you are confusing a few things. Training just for finishing a marathon is a bit different than training for a BQ, sub 3, etc. (depending on age, sex, etc.)

Yes, the idea about running easy/long/slow is so you can run MORE miles without beating yourself up. This will build a nice, big aerobic engine. But, you eventually have to build that “muscular endurance” (not a real physiological term) so that you can run that 7 min mile for all 26 miles (for ex). A 7 min is NOT fast for even avg fit runners for say a 5-10K. A 5 min mile is. So, I personally like the McMillian approach if you are really looking for a good time since you need to be used to the burned out quad feelings and running hard (a 7 min mile will feel pretty darn hard on the legs after 20 miles). Also, I only have 2-3 Gu’s and water for 2.5 hour runs. Or some InfinIT to cover all bases for my long training runs. Eat very well or good recovery drink with carbs/protein quickly after for sure. I stick pretty close to the run no more than 2.5 hours (although a did a 2:40 just a few weeks ago) since it really messes with my recovery if I go more. BUT, my 2.5 hours gets me about 20 miles. That “time” rule doesn’t work so well if 2.5 hours is only getting one 14 miles! I am not an advocate of 23-25 mile runs (maybe 1 if you run with a group slower than you, taking lots of breaks, etc.). It just kills the rest of my runs and running every single day consistently is the #1 important thing to me (not quality of my long runs). As for fuel- yeah, I think you need to be well hydrated during the run with some complex (not simple) carbs before. Some simple sugars are OK after an hour or so in my mind.

Good luck!

4

Letting your body get depleated is never a good idea. Not only does it increase recovery time but is decreases the effectiveness of the workout. In terms of the format of your long run I would say it depends.

  1. How many marathons have you ran
  2. How fast are you
  3. Are you 100% focused on the marathon or more of a triathete doing a marathon
  4. How many years have you been running
  5. and a lot more, a good local coach can help you a lot …

I can tell you that the marathoner I coach rarely does “slow” long runs during the final marathon preperation. I think of these as strength training for the muscles and tendon’s and they have minimal to no influance on aerobic fitness in terms of the marathon (note I didn’t say Ironman). Also it is very hard for anyone to run longer then 2:30 in one shot so no matter what pace you run I would cap the total duration at 2:30. For one marathoner I work with if she is running 135 to 140 HR that will be about 7:00 to 7:15 per mile. For another local lady I work with that will be 8:30-8:45 per mile, but in both cases they don’t run over 2:30, the faster athlete just runs farther in that time.

To answer your question you are best served to work up to workouts like this:
30:00 easy, 30:00 @ 90% of MP, 30:00 @ MP, 30:00 all out
also
20:00 easy, 40:00 @ 90%, 35:00 @ 94%, 30:00 @ 98% of MP

you get the idea? You always want to run your longer workouts in a progresssive manner. Sometimes you really crank at the end and sometimes you run strong all the way. The marathoner above ran 20 miles in 2:03 after a 1.5 mile jog before Boston this year and ended up running 2:38 in that race. She spent a significant amount of time doing long progressive runs and only did two slow 2:30 duration runs.

I hope this helps. It is very hard to give advice over a board. The people I coach I work with directly and let there bodies reaction to training load determine the next workouts. I can tell you that this seems to work:

6 - 8 week cycle focusing on all qualites of running:
Build from 1:15 to 1:45 or 1:50 duration long runs over hills
Tempo runs from 3 to 10 miles in length ( a great one is 7 miles start 1:00 slower then goal MP and take off 10 sec per mile so the last mile is at goal MP)
Strides
Low key 5k - 10k races
Fartlek workouts hard
fun running circuit workouts
etc…

3 weeks
focusing on marathon pace 2 x per week or recovery running with high volume

1 week at 50%-60% volume all easy with strides and maybe finish with a race (10k to 15k) at the end of the week. don’t expect great results at the race

3 weeks at about 85 to 90% of the avg volume for the previous 3 week cycle before the rest
2 workouts per week have strides during or after the runs
1 workout per week focus on threshold strength 2 - 3 x {5,4,3,2,1} with 1:00 rests etc … make it up 30 - 45:00 worth of work and short rest
1 workout per week long progression, let yourself feel good running long and fast, don’t be afraid to take very easy days before and after

2 weeks out at about 70% max volume with strides, light fartlek mid week and a medium duration (9 - 12 miles) run with 4 to 6 miles at race pace on the weekend

final week at about 40% volume not including the race. include a few k’s at race pace now and then to remind the legs of the pace without being tired.

Again a coach working with you is the best way to do this right. It is not possible for me to put together a general marathon training program for people that could be anything from 4:00 to 2:30 marathon runners and likely not runners at all but triathletes :slight_smile:

Hope this helps you,

Ed Alyanak

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GREAT post Ed!

I mean, really great. If people really read carefully and implement (yes a coach is best, but …)

Oh, and since you are as modest as they come - congrats again on that female you coach with her Boston time since she was 2nd OA American (to Castor no less) and your WIFE!

:slight_smile:

6

Thanks for the kind words. Having a wife who can drop you any time she feels like it really helps me keep things in perspective :slight_smile: She leaves for Osaka Tuesday. Looks like 90 degrees and 80+% humidity for the finish of the marathon so we don’t expect a fast race. The heat wave we had helped out a lot for her training this time around. Now my mind is going over about everything I have available to figure out how to get another 5 - 10 seconds per k for the trials. Should be fun!

Enjoy the rest of the season,

Ed Alyanak

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Yes, best to Ann for the worlds! Is Akora still running well too for the U.S? Is she even going to wear a watch or are you just going to turn her loose? :wink:

Any chance against the Russians (and some pretty good Japanese and Kenyan women as well!)?

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Do you mean Tara and Kara? They are both training well. Kara ran under 34 this year and Tara was oh so close to sub 16. She ran 16:05 this year. You say i’m humble but training a women under 16 for the 5k is something I would really like to do … She is also set up to go to the world 1/2 marathon (road champs is a 1/2 this year, last year a 20k). She will run the 20k in New Haven. Kara has had other priorites lately but is getting back into the swing of things. It takes a lot of hard work for these ladies to go fast. Working a full time job starts really getting in the way!

For Ann she will run smart. We have done most of the hard runs in the heat of the day and dialed in nutrition / hydration. I can tell you 2 hours on the bike, loaded with gatorade, at 10 mph is hard on the bottom end! She is not a good weather 2:20 runner and we know that, and the Japanese team is! Our goal is to run a smart negative split race. The best women’s finisher in a long time for the US (2005) was dead last at 5k so we expect similar. Our plan is to run 3:50 / k for the first 1/2 (1:20:50), then take 10k to get moving and take in solid nutrition and give it everything for the last 11k. In boston we didn’t use a watch and just ran, but with the hot conditions we are banking on a lot of dnf’s and death marches. Our goal is to not be one of them :slight_smile: Top 25 would be great, top 15 would be huge. It is a world championships after all …

For the trials next year. No watch and race for top 3 or die trying. It is important to not have a negative mental experience in this marathon so her mind can let her go places that are “high risk” and “hellish” at the trials. That is what it will take to make the team. Wow, I’m pumped thinking about it!

Ed Alyanak

9

IMO, I think rroof and Ed gave about the best answers you can get over a web forum.

10

First, thanks for the detailed response. I’ll fill in the blanks to put things in perspective:

  1. How many marathons have you ran

Excluding ultras & IM, this will be my 5th open marathon.

  1. How fast are you

This season I’ve run low 19:xx 5k at the end of a sprint triathlon; last 10k was 39:xx; last BQ attempt was disasterous, but properly paced for my ability at the time (Dec '06) would have produced a 3:15ish marathon, 5 minutes off the qualifying time.

  1. Are you 100% focused on the marathon or more of a triathete doing a marathon

I mostly consider myself a runner posing as a triathlete during the summer. Qualifying will be priority #1. I’ll probably choose a race in Jan. or Feb., following a 50-miler in early Nov. I’m looking to maintain 40-mile weeks for at least two months prior to race day.

  1. How many years have you been running

First year of running was 2003. Haven’t really taken a significant break since then.

30:00 easy, 30:00 @ 90% of MP, 30:00 @ MP, 30:00 all out
also
20:00 easy, 40:00 @ 90%, 35:00 @ 94%, 30:00 @ 98% of MP

I’m assuming that by all out, you mean a pace that’s as fast as I can maintain consistently over 30 minutes? Ouch!

I’m fairly certain I’ll be abandoning the 20 mile LSD approach this time around, adopting the progressive (and shorter) long-run strategy. Is there an existing training program you’d recommend?

11

As has been stated, this is one excellent post…I have printed it out for application in my own marathon build.

Thanks for taking the time to share such detailed information, Ed…very much appreciated here!

12

I agree with rroof. I made significant progress by increasing my frequency. During the off season I focused extensivly on building power and leg turnover. I really didn’t concern myself with the miles as much as I did varying terrain and consistancy/frequency.

Spring I start on speed, alot of hill repeats and track sessions. Once again. I kept a long run, but really did concern myself with overall mileage as much as consistancy/frequency.

The result was going from a 1:35 standalone half marathon to a 1:21 standalone half marathon / 1:29 - a 1 minute piss break off the bike (Steelhead which was hillier and hotter then my standalone). I guess this could go into the thread “What does it take to get under 1:30 as well.”

In any case, now I have been training for IMMOO. So I started ramping up my mileage, but all my runs are still ~7:15m/m for a 70 mile run week. My long run is usually 18 miles and the rest of the week I do two a days. A standalone in the morning and a brick in the evening. All at that ~7:15 pace. It’s really the oddest thing. The consistancy has really brought on a natural pace for me that feels comfortable in almost any condition. There was one week that I ramped up my run miles a bit too much and I was having some serious problems on hills the last 4 miles of my long run. I had almost zero power, but everytime I hit the flats, I would go right back into that 7:15 pace. Recovery time is much better as well.

We’ll see at IMMOO if this really pays off. I can only tell you that it has done wonders for my Half Mary