Have you done any long runs in them, without switching back and forth? Does one leave your legs feeling more fresh afterwards than the other?
I haven’t tried alpha’s yet, but had a pair in my hands recently and was surprised at how stiff they felt compared to the vapors, but maybe that doesn’t matter?
I haven’t done any long runs in the Alphas yet as I just got them yesterday, but I’m definitely going to do that while I’m still in the return window. I have done plenty of long runs in my current Vaporflies, and they do a good job of keeping the foot and knee pain / soreness I sometimes get with other shoes.
I think it’s hard to compare the stiffness of the Alphas because it’s almost like a two part shoe with the air bubble up front. I have slight arthritis in my feet, and I’m hoping the Alphas will help reduce the pounding on really long runs.
I’m a bit biased and I do know personally all the players here really well ( Malindi, Dr. Trent, Alex Hutchinson(writer) and of course Malindi’s Husband Graham Hood - WaySub4 here in the forum), but it was nice to see this total Team Canada effort to make sure that Malindi was running in the right shoe for HER, and that this was truly one of those win/win sponsorship deals!
My own experience with Saucony Endorphin Speeds and vaporfly Next%, while not very scientific, is opposite.
After several training runs on the same courses, I am able to do the same speed on the vapors with less perceived effort and -WAY- less overall soreness afterwards (long runs).
You can’t compare the two. The speed has a nylon plate and the vaporfly has a carbon place. Hence why they compared the Pro and the vaporfly…not the speed. The speed is training shoe. The Pro is the racer
This is just to show how different all of us are, but someone else in this forum tested the VFs, vs Endorphin Pro and Speed, and his results indicated that for him the speeds were the closest to the VFs. I have both and h I think the Pros are the best for me. I think the Speeds are more of a “Fast” trainer.
My own experience with Saucony Endorphin Speeds and vaporfly Next%, while not very scientific, is opposite.
After several training runs on the same courses, I am able to do the same speed on the vapors with less perceived effort and -WAY- less overall soreness afterwards (long runs).
You can’t compare the two. The speed has a nylon plate and the vaporfly has a carbon place. Hence why they compared the Pro and the vaporfly…not the speed. The speed is training shoe. The Pro is the racer
This is just to show how different all of us are, but someone else in this forum tested the VFs, vs Endorphin Pro and Speed, and his results indicated that for him the speeds were the closest to the VFs. I have both and h I think the Pros are the best for me. I think the Speeds are more of a “Fast” trainer.
As per the research paper linked in post #11, optimal plate stiffness (resulting in best individual running efficiency) depend on your speed, foot strike, gait, …
So, yes, for one person Pro can be better, for another it will be the Speed, for another it will be the VF Next, …
Yeah, the other aspect is that not all “old school” racing flats are created equa. I did my own “bro-science” test on the treadmill, compared Alphaflys, Endorphin Pros, vs old school racing flats Saucony Type A and Saucony Fastwitch. The test was bunch of 3 k intervals at constant tempo/half marathon effort (RPE), which for me is around 3:40/km @ 2 % incline. Not surprisingly, I found I could increase the pace down to 3:37/km with the carbon plated shoes while keeping the effort constant. The Type A tested the worst for me, I had to increase the pace up to 3:42-43/km for the effort to feel the same and they just felt dead. The Fastwitch felt actually pretty good. This is hard to describe but I found the Alphaflys “too responsive” and I am almost convinced that the Endorphin Pro is perhaps the best shoe for me with a compromise of bounce and stability. Would love to test the RC elites, Hyperion and Adidas, but I am running out of triathlon budget this year.
Really wish I would still have my Adidas Adios Boost 2 I used in races back in 2015, they felt very fast and responsive. One of the papers show the new generation to be slower than VFs.
Mizuno also had a very fast (for me) racing flat, the Wave Hitogami (which was discontinued for some unknown reason and replaced with Sonic, which feels really slow and it’s not even the same design). Too bad I can’t find them, otherwise I would have tested them. Interestingly enough, Mizuno “wave” concept, felt somewhat close to 2020’s carbon plated shoes. I used to find their “wave” racing flats to be very bouncy and responsive compared to the Type A or Asics Hyperelite (?) for example.
Another thing which needs to be considered is that when you are a runner that pronates a bit or more then a bit that is going to cost energy, efficiency and eventually time.
So for some runners the Saucony End. Pro will be a by far superior shoe since it is so much more stable the for example the Next% or the Adidas Adios Pro.
Also the new Hoka Rocket X dissapointed in this way, carbon plated but non-pebax and you feel that in the energy return immediately. I dig the fit of this shoe, i really love it, it comes close to the Adidas and you get really excited. And then you run and are like…wtf.
Jeroen
Hello Jeroen
I’m interested in your feedback regarding the shoes you tested
Especially as I’m a pronator
For exemple VF4% was too unstable for me. Standard Hoka without orthotics are stable enough for me.
If I understand well :
Adios Pro : efficient but not stable if pronating ?
VF Next : efficient but not stable if pronating ?
Endorphin Pro : efficient and stable ? Is it as soft as Adios Pro and Next ?
Rocket X : stable but not efficient ? Foam too hard ?
Adidas Adios Pro: Very instable unless you land perfect midfoot due to the narrow heel, high stack. But very nice pop from the sole. interesting thing was that you could actually see and feel the rods under the forefoot after 2 runs. You can literaly see the ‘print’ of pressure of the rods on the outsole.
VF Next%: I would say not as unstable VF4% but still not a stable shoe at all.
Saucony Endorphin Pro: Still Pebax based soles but a little firmer then the Nike or the New Balance FC TC. By far ahead of the rest in terms of pure stability in carbon plated shoes using pebax based foam and giving a real pop. Athough admit I have not tested the Skechers models.
Hoka Rocket X: In stability not bad but not the stability of the End. Pro. But its complete lacking the pop from the mid sole. I really like the fit, it is by distance the best fitting Hoka for me with having wider feetin the forefoot and liking a snug fit in the midfoot.
I do also have the New Balance RC Elite and this is strange one for me. It is more stable then the big brother the FC TC, but it is just a few mm lower in stack and misses that same pop bouncy feeling that the FC TC gives you. It also fits more narrow, I had to replace the sockliner with a thinner one where the FC TC is really wide. But stability of the RC Elite is pretty good.
But overall, if you want and the poppy snappy feeling and some stability the End. Pro is the go to shoe as far as I have tested them. Hoka Carbon Rocket and even more Carbon X are stable, but they lack that nice poppy feeling. The Carbon X being on the firm side, firmer then the End. Pro.
My own experience with Saucony Endorphin Speeds and vaporfly Next%, while not very scientific, is opposite.
After several training runs on the same courses, I am able to do the same speed on the vapors with less perceived effort and -WAY- less overall soreness afterwards (long runs).
Same. I have both these shoes. I’m underwhelmed on the speeds
Adidas Adios Pro: Very instable unless you land perfect midfoot due to the narrow heel, high stack. But very nice pop from the sole. interesting thing was that you could actually see and feel the rods under the forefoot after 2 runs. You can literaly see the ‘print’ of pressure of the rods on the outsole.
VF Next%: I would say not as unstable VF4% but still not a stable shoe at all.
Saucony Endorphin Pro: Still Pebax based soles but a little firmer then the Nike or the New Balance FC TC. By far ahead of the rest in terms of pure stability in carbon plated shoes using pebax based foam and giving a real pop. Athough admit I have not tested the Skechers models.
Hoka Rocket X: In stability not bad but not the stability of the End. Pro. But its complete lacking the pop from the mid sole. I really like the fit, it is by distance the best fitting Hoka for me with having wider feetin the forefoot and liking a snug fit in the midfoot.
I do also have the New Balance RC Elite and this is strange one for me. It is more stable then the big brother the FC TC, but it is just a few mm lower in stack and misses that same pop bouncy feeling that the FC TC gives you. It also fits more narrow, I had to replace the sockliner with a thinner one where the FC TC is really wide. But stability of the RC Elite is pretty good.
But overall, if you want and the poppy snappy feeling and some stability the End. Pro is the go to shoe as far as I have tested them. Hoka Carbon Rocket and even more Carbon X are stable, but they lack that nice poppy feeling. The Carbon X being on the firm side, firmer then the End. Pro.
Jeroen
Hi Jeroen, PW,
Love this thread and I would simply like to add another one here: the Brooks Hyperion Elite 2. And I insist on the “2”!
It is the most stable carbon-plated shoe that I have tested to date. Not as responsive as a Vaporlfy Next% but not sluggish at all either. You get all the benefits of the carbon plate, in a lightweight product with a very wide midfoot landing platform. I have no issue with stability and therefore the Vaporfly (and Alphafly) is fine for me but I love keeping them for races only and using shoes like the Brooks Hyperion Elite for fast tempo days. I cannot compare with the Endorphin Pro, but it complements very well the Endorphin Speed (a bit less of that poppy thing) and the Hyperion Tempo for easier stuff.
I have seen the Hyperion Elite 2 already discounted and I suspect it will be even more the case with the holidays coming up.
If that Brooks is even less poppy then the End. Speed I’m out :-), But I’m tempted to get my hands on those anyway. I’m going to pull some strings of one of my old employees that works now for Brooks.
Adidas Adios Pro: Very instable unless you land perfect midfoot due to the narrow heel, high stack. But very nice pop from the sole. interesting thing was that you could actually see and feel the rods under the forefoot after 2 runs. You can literaly see the ‘print’ of pressure of the rods on the outsole.
VF Next%: I would say not as unstable VF4% but still not a stable shoe at all.
Saucony Endorphin Pro: Still Pebax based soles but a little firmer then the Nike or the New Balance FC TC. By far ahead of the rest in terms of pure stability in carbon plated shoes using pebax based foam and giving a real pop. Athough admit I have not tested the Skechers models.
Hoka Rocket X: In stability not bad but not the stability of the End. Pro. But its complete lacking the pop from the mid sole. I really like the fit, it is by distance the best fitting Hoka for me with having wider feetin the forefoot and liking a snug fit in the midfoot.
I do also have the New Balance RC Elite and this is strange one for me. It is more stable then the big brother the FC TC, but it is just a few mm lower in stack and misses that same pop bouncy feeling that the FC TC gives you. It also fits more narrow, I had to replace the sockliner with a thinner one where the FC TC is really wide. But stability of the RC Elite is pretty good.
But overall, if you want and the poppy snappy feeling and some stability the End. Pro is the go to shoe as far as I have tested them. Hoka Carbon Rocket and even more Carbon X are stable, but they lack that nice poppy feeling. The Carbon X being on the firm side, firmer then the End. Pro.
Jeroen
Thanks Jeroen for the feedbacks on all these shoes… very useful !
Some of the latest research out there is saying that pronation to over pronation doesn’t cause injuries if that is your issue. I thought the same thing for a long time too and wore structured shoes even an orthotics. Finally I went to a neutral shoe and just ran. No problems.
The saucony is more stable than the VF but the VF is the most “unstable” shoe I have ever run in. To run in it I have to pay attention to my foot strike but again I don’t have a pretty foot strike either.
Some of the latest research out there is saying that pronation to over pronation doesn’t cause injuries if that is your issue. I thought the same thing for a long time too and wore structured shoes even an orthotics. Finally I went to a neutral shoe and just ran. No problems.
The saucony is more stable than the VF but the VF is the most “unstable” shoe I have ever run in. To run in it I have to pay attention to my foot strike but again I don’t have a pretty foot strike either.
Well… initially I did not pay attention to my pronation (mostly right feet).
Then I ran in the VF4% and my natural pronation plus the lack of medial support of these shoes destroyed my right posterior tibialis.
After a period using “stability” shoes and orthotics (repair period I came back to pretty normal neutral shoes.
So I agree with you :
you can pronate and still use neutral shoes, provided they are reasonably stable. Probably if you pronate “too much” you may need “stability” shoes or orthotics
VF4% is the most unstable shoe I have run in. Much too unstable for me.
I’m looking for reasonably stable “super shoes” and apparently the Endorphin Pro / Speed, NB Elite RC or Brooks could do the job
I am really looking forward to his results. Saucony is in my mind, the runner-up to Nike this year. I think it was smart that instead of going for super bounce and compromised stability they designed a balance between bounce and stability which works great for those of us who don’t have great running biomechanics.
About the pronation: been going back an forth myself with custom orthotics for the last few years after a few inuries. Last year I actually lost them, so this season I have been running without them and have decided to remain orthotic free for the foreseeable future. The first few months were awful, no niggles but my pace dropped 10-15s /km and felt like I had lost my foot responsiveness. This is totally unproven and maybe just a change of biomechanics with a mental component, but I wonder if stiff orthotics act like a bit of a spring/plate.
I bought a pair of SEPs as a holding place until I could find a pair of AN%s at the recommendation of my local shoe shop. There was no Nike availability on the horizon, so I figured I’d use the Saucony’s to help the transition. I had been running in Brooks Ghost exclusively but like a lot of runners, I was determined to get some of that ‘free speed’. I’ve used custom orthotics for the last few years.
The Brooks is a completely different shoe from the Saucony(much less the Nike) but after a few sets on my treadmill I felt comfortable and took them outside for long-ish run. Instant impression is legs were fresher 10 miles in and the byproduct was a very encouraging pace for the 13 mile total. This impression hasn’t changed in the couple of months since. I used the shoe for my weekly treadmill interval set and the LR but recovery miles done in the Brooks. The orthotic fits in either, interchangeably.
Behold, an email from Nike about AN%s available through the website. I did one test run on the treadmill and then took the Nike’s out for 15 miles with the orthotics. Bouncy, lots of ankle strikes, and finishing time was roughly what I’d hoped for. But the Nike’s aren’t fitting right; lots of toe discomfort. I’ve been back to the orthotics doc and he molded inserts that I’d use only in these shoes - I’ve run in those once and the jury is out.
So, tomorrow is a virtual Thanksgiving Half that I’ll be running in the Saucony’s. I think that what I’m learning is what others have already written; Nike’s are fast/kinder on the legs in a long run but might not be the cure for everything that ails you. I still want them to work; the plan is to swap around the inserts(it’d help if I could concentrate on mechanics enough to stop whacking my ankles) but I’m really starting to think the Saucony’s are easier to live with.
