Run Durability - Trainable?

Hello everyone,

Last week I competed in Ironman 70.3 Peru. Going into the race, my objective was to achieve a new personal best in the half marathon. The strategy was to be more conservative on the bike. As a result, I rode approximately 10 watts and 7 bpm lower than in my previous 70.3, where I struggled significantly on the run and finished with a 1:40 half marathon.

Arriving at T2, I felt strong and started the run in a controlled and steady manner, maintaining a slightly conservative pace. However, at around the 15 km mark, I experienced a significant drop in performance again.

My longest brick session in training has been 10 km at race pace, which raises a question: is it possible that I am lacking run durability specifically in a triathlon context?

My coach mentioned that even with a more aggressive bike effort, the overall result might have been similar.

My next race is in October, should I make longer BRICK sessions?

Maybe consider fueling too as a culprit?

Sorry, I missed to say that I had a great nutrition, the same CH intake I was having while training for the event

How has your stand-alone long run and over all run volume been in the lead-up?

My weekly run volume has been consistent, averaging between 40 to 55 km, including tempo sessions, VOâ‚‚ work, and a weekly long run. I also hit a 10K PR during this period, which gave me confidence in my run fitness.

That’s why I was a bit frustrated—I felt this could be the first race where I truly managed the bike conservatively and executed a strong half marathon

Maybe it is the length of your long run or just time in the sport putting in the weeks/months/years of consistent training?

Have you tried watching this clip?

This routine will thrash your legs the first few weeks but it’s damn effective: Muscular Endurance: All You Need to Know - Evoke Endurance

Coach is good at saying “maybe your running just sucks” but did they offer any solution?

If not - Don’t change your training, change your coach

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You talking durability or fatigue resistance?
It sounds like you had higher expectations for yourself than your fitness.
Monty might be right, you’re under fueled.
I wouldn’t do longer BRICK runs, speaking for me they don’t do anything except mentally get me ready for running off the bike.
Add in a good strength routine, with Plyos, and heavy weights.
Try to run more frequent. Desert dude and stevej mentioned it a few years back and I took that advice after reading it and been running 8 out 10 days in my blocks.

What’s your strength training like?

Lots of good questions being asked, and some great advice from @mike_s

Let’s consolidate:

  1. How many weeks was your 70.3 specific build with that 40-55k/week?
    1. What did your long runs look like in time/distance/pace across this block?
    2. What was your weekly run frequency across this block?
  2. What was your 10k PR you achieved in this block?
    1. Based on that recent open 10k, how would your VDOT-predicted 1/2 and full marathon times/paces compare to what you ran in Peru? How did your goal pace for Peru compare to these predicted paces?
  3. What were your hourly CHO and sodium rates on the bike and run? (that you raced with what you practiced is possibly separate from whether it is enough)
  4. What were the starting and ending temps/humidity for the run and how would they compare to your 70.3 half-marathon PR?
  5. What is your triathlon training age? How many 70.3s have you done?
  6. I’ll add some more: How was your taper? (Could it be possible you just had residual fatigue that never cleared? Also related - if you traveled, how much travel/how many time zones did you cross to get to Peru, and how many days did you arrive before the race?
  7. Could you potentially be doing too much intensity in your run training compared to your ability to recover?
  8. Let’s imagine your run training was appropriate, and regardless of your conservative bike pacing, was your bike fitness high enough to support a strong run?
  9. On that note, how fatiguing is a 70.3 swim for you?

That might sound like an interrogation, though the answers could be helpful in determining why your fade in the final 6k of the run occurred. Alternatively, maybe it’s all just pretty simple and you just need to run more, more frequently, and/or potentially more slowly.

PS: Alan Couzens and Inaki de la Parra just did a great interview with Erin Carson on strength training (podcast - Mad Science in Real Life). Some interesting deadlift numbers from Taylor Knibb in there.

Great!
Let’s consolidate:

  1. How many weeks was your 70.3 specific build with that 40-55k/week? At least 22 weeks away from the race, where I could train more sweet spots, but I´ve been consistent with that milleage through the year

    1. What did your long runs look like in time/distance/pace across this block? 1:30 - 1:45 When I had pure z2 it was like 16-18 KM

    2. What was your weekly run frequency across this block? Tuesday VO2, Wensday Tempo, Saturday BRICK, Sunday Long

  2. What was your 10k PR you achieved in this block? 40MIN 10KM

    1. Based on that recent open 10k, how would your VDOT-predicted 1/2 and full marathon times/paces compare to what you ran in Peru? How did your goal pace for Peru compare to these predicted paces? My HM PR is 1:31 and I ran 1:40 in Lima, but I can run a pure HM in 1:28 right now
  3. What were your hourly CHO and sodium rates on the bike and run? (that you raced with what you practiced is possibly separate from whether it is enough) 90 gr CH biking, a caffeine gel getting into t2 and a gel every 20-25 min

  4. What were the starting and ending temps/humidity for the run and how would they compare to your 70.3 half-marathon PR? Well that could be a good point, the temp was more hot in PerĂş than Buenos Aires, I could get a better position in my category with this time than Buenos Aires

  5. What is your triathlon training age? How many 70.3s have you done? Consistent 2 years, but ive been involved in the sport 10 years, I’m 36 years old

  6. I’ll add some more: How was your taper? (Could it be possible you just had residual fatigue that never cleared? Also related - if you traveled, how much travel/how many time zones did you cross to get to Peru, and how many days did you arrive before the race? I arrived 2 days prior to the race, the time travel was just 3 hours, but I had a quite stressfull day prior to the competition due a technical bike issue

  7. Could you potentially be doing too much intensity in your run training compared to your ability to recover? I would check that point, maybe I needed some more recovery time after the last 3 weeks prior to the race

  8. Let’s imagine your run training was appropriate, and regardless of your conservative bike pacing, was your bike fitness high enough to support a strong run? Yes, I believe I’m strong enough to support a strong run with the power executed in Lima.

  9. On that note, how fatiguing is a 70.3 swim for you? Not much, I consider myself a mid pack swimmer

That might sound like an interrogation, though the answers could be helpful in determining why your fade in the final 6k of the run occurred. Alternatively, maybe it’s all just pretty simple and you just need to run more, more frequently, and/or potentially more slowly.

PS: Alan Couzens and Inaki de la Parra just did a great interview with Erin Carson on strength training (podcast - Mad Science in Real Life). Some interesting deadlift numbers from Taylor Knibb in there.

Well to your original question, yes run durability should be trainable.

I mean, your race result seems pretty solid; it seems like there isn’t a major issue in your training - solid run training, nutrition, etc. (assuming you did 90g carbs per hour on the bike, and not 90g total on the bike). It’s possible your overall training just needs something to level up - could be just compounding good training over another year or three, could be adding a bit of volume, could be changing up the intensity distribution a little (ex: sub in threshold and/or more tempo work for VO2, which may reduce your overall run intensity load, but be more 70.3 effort specific; or maybe some kind of progression run), could be adding in some of the strength training mentioned, could be reducing some life stress to improve recovery.

With the caveat of the idea that any measurement system isn’t totally applicable to an individual, let’s just look at your race from a Jack Daniels VDOT table perspective:

10K of 40’ = VDOT of 51.9

  • Easy pace = 4:59 ~ 5:28/k
  • Marathon pace = 4:23 (some say that a good 70.3 run is near one’s marathon pace)
  • Took the liberty of looking at the tracker (not always accurate), you started near 4:30, ended around 5:10/k pace, for an average of near 4:45/k pace. That is sort of right in between that M pace and E pace from Jack Daniels, which in general is a reasonable spot for many people (Jack Daniels’ Marathon pace is more of an “ideal” pace given proper marathon training). Perhaps if you want to sustain that potential M pace you need slightly different, more specific run training.

Doing the same exercise with your open half of 1:31 = VDOT of 50.3

  • Easy pace = 5:06 ~ 5:37
  • Marathon pace = 4:30
  • This half marathon time predicts a 10K time of 41:07, or just a bit slower than your recent PB. So your 40’ 10k could indicate you are a bit more optimized for that shorter, more intense effort, and little less optimized for these longer efforts (hence the durability question).
  • I bet your Olympic/Standard distance would be quite good at the moment.

It’s possible your opening pace of near 4:30 might just have been a little hot (assuming that number is accurate, again I’m going off the tracker). I wonder how you might have felt starting at 4:50 or 4:45/k and holding it steady or potentially being able to increase the pace just slightly over the back half or the last 5k or so.

It’s also possible that temperature played a role too.

One other interesting resource on potential times: I like this thread from many years ago. The graphic seems to be gone, but I found another copy of it here. I believe I am attributing this table to the correct thread, and @Ale_Martinez, but not positive; also, the tri times are derived from original Jack Daniels VDOT tables. Anyways, your 1:40 is pretty spot on according to an open half time of 1:31. Your 40’ 10k time suggests potential of anywhere from 1:38 to 1:33 high, given the right training for you.

It seems like your efforts are worth applauding. It seems like a faster run is possible, but that getting to a lower run time might be a function of finding the right variable to change up. Good luck!

I would be quite interested to hear the thoughts of others. I find these types of threads some of the most interesting on slowtwitch.

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Which might be explained by his weekly workout structure (apart from the long run, I don’t see much aerobic training in there)?

“What was your weekly run frequency across this block? Tuesday VO2, Wensday Tempo, Saturday BRICK, Sunday Long”

In my coaching experience. The MOST important session type bar none for long distance triathlon racing is a rolling-hilly steady effort trail run to build durability, if you can’t access trails easily then a treadmill session will lots of gradient variation between 3-6%

By steady effort I mean HR stays “aerobic” and irrespective of gradient changes within a 10bpm range or if you were wearing a stryd foot pod within a roughly 30w range.

This will build durability.

9 Likes

Apologies in advance if this sounds a bit negative. Not my intention.

  1. We don’t really know much about your training and nutrition. Your coach does. If you need to ask friendly strangers, how would you describe the trust situation between you and coach? (On the flip side, you got free advice from @tilburydavis here, so in hindsight it may have been worthwhile for this reason alone even if you trust your coach 100% :joy:)
  2. The idea of a “half marathon PR” in a triathlon seems a bit strange to me. If you put a half marathon off the bike in a different bucket than an open HM, sure. But courses are not certified anyway and as we all know they can be well short of 21.1 km (like, 5% short easily) as well as being long.
  3. Nutrition in training is something I find unreliable as a predictor of nutrition in a race. The workout is never a 1 to 1 simulation. Consider how far or how close you are to race conditions in terms of the amount of intensity, duration overall, conditions, etc. What I would find close, and still not close enough (due to there not being a swim as well as other reasons), is a 3+ hour ride with 4x25’ at 70.3 race intensity (for a bike leg that will take 2:20-2:30) followed by a 1-hour run a majority of which is at 70.3 race pace.
  4. Speaking of the swim. Many folks underestimate how much it can take out of you. It’s convenient to say „it’s such a short part of the race, let’s not invest too much in the swim”. For me, the key to matching my bike power in a race with my bike power in training has been longer swims, and pacing the swim during the race. And you feel it on the run. But I am a crap swimmer.
  5. What worked for me especially well in terms of the run off the bike: low cadence reps on the trainer at tempo to sweet spot intensity. Strength endurance, in other words.
3 Likes

Thank you all for your support.

This input is very helpful in understanding what may have happened, and I hope it can also benefit others going through a similar situation.

My next race is in October, and I’ll be happy to share an update on my progress.

Thanks again,
Ruben

2 Likes

Surprised no one has asked this - what did you feel at that 15km point? That might pinpoint the issue, be it nutrition, hydration, overbiking, durability, etc.

Great question.

I started to feel fatigued, but my heart rate remained quite stable throughout the run. I was closely monitoring it the entire time.

My main concern was that I was actually slower on the downhills than on the uphills, wich was quite sorpresive for me