I find myself wondering in light of the current WTC/USAT fracus…IMCDA is coming up. WTC will be providing its own officials and the new rules. It may be well officated or not…trying to figure out the trained pool they would draw upon. My instinct is that they will probably do a decent job drawing from folks around the nation – plus as the first race in the new format there will be likely high expectations. But then I think about other races in the US – halfs and Oly’s. How much do people really care about the level/quality of officiating? Other than the obvious outrage at miscues…does enforcement affect your decision as to whether it is a good race or bad one. Would quality of officiating be much of a factor in your decision as to which races you choose to do? I have hunch probably not but would like to hear your opinions just out of my own curiousity.
I was catching up on that news (from the ST main page) and wondered about it too. This paragraph caught my eye:
“But Riccitello also stresses considering the entire situation before giving a penatly. When commenting on USAT’s officials, and the degree to which WTC feels they are almost entirely objective and almost never subjective in their calls, Riccitello said, “They’re rendering judgments, but they’re not using judgment.” "
…So, here is my question: When I roll out of T1 on race day at Ironman, what is going to be different? If you allow the referees to “consider the entire situation,” aren’t you leaving open the door for the same kinds of mistakes we’ve seen and read about from USAT officials? The guys on motorcycles are still human.
For shorter races, I wouldn’t even think about the quality of officiating. Since I am not competing for the podium, I just want to know that someone is out there stopping blatant cheating as best they can.
me? tight, proper officiating is huge. i’m totally in sync with USAT on the need for tight officiating. my problems with the current system:
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majoring in the minors (motorcycles don’t show up as promised, so officials go hog wild writing tickets about stuff that doesn’t matter);
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penalties that don’t fit the crime (you don’t give 2min, or 4min, for chinstrap or stopping one foot over the dismount line, that’s just wrong, but we seem bent, as a federation, on finding unique and creative ways to drive our people out of the sport);
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we aren’t drawing experienced athletes to be officials, so we’re ending up with non-competitors trying to make judgment calls, when they have no good basis for forming judgments. this not charlie’s fault. he’s playing the hand he’s dealt. hey, roadies are notoriously cheap. why don’t we see if we can pay them to officiate? maybe we should plumb that pool for people who’ll know real drafting when they see it.
i would be all for USAT, and entirely anti WTC, on this if USAT would not persist on just being stubborn. if/when USAT apologizes, publicly, to olaf for F*&king him—twice—in kona, and if/when USAT seriously considers the wisdom of taking a guy out of race contention for littering prior to the start of the race, or for racking his bike incorrectly, well, then i’ll know USAT is something other than just stubborn.
here are two questions, food for thought:
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is it better to write a guy a penalty for his racking his bike incorrectly, and to leave it racked that way (impeding other racers), or is it better to tell the guy to rack his bike correctly as he’s preparing to leave with it racked badly?
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is it better to penalize a guy for a launched bottle out of a behind the seat cage, and to leave the bottle on the road, or is it better—whether you penalize him or not—to just move the bottle out of the way of competitors?
USAT has been asked these questions, or presented these scenarios, more than once on this forum, and has yet to answer them, here or in any venue that i’ve seen. i’m all for USAT, and for its officials, and for its officials program. at the same time, it just doesn’t seem that we, the paying customers, the owners, have much access to the way the rules are written or executed.
“aren’t you leaving open the door for the same kinds of mistakes we’ve seen and read about from”
I wouldn’t same “the same” mistakes, but certainly different ones. The question is do you want a completely level and fair race were everyone is treated completely equally or do you want a race that has a bit more leeway and a bit more “common sense”?
Hammering a guy at the BOP that’s traveling 14 MPH for a drafting penality because he took to long to get out of the “Zone” is fair…but doesn’t make much sense. Penalizing the guy who’s buddy is jogging along with him is fair, but takes alot of fun out of the race…which doesn’t make much sense.
Both ways of officiating has there downfalls. Frankly I prefer a more subjective version, but that’s me. I’m willing to accept that eventually that “subjectivity” will go against me.
~Matt
I agree with your point Dan…DQ for safety violations, cheating course, unsportsmanlike behavior. Dismount can be potentially both a safety issue and cheating issue. Progressive time penalities for everything else. I enforce the rules I’ve got as they are defined but doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be a rewrite or review. Actually…some of the points made make me think new GTG raules aren’t going to have any effect on the quality of the officials unless WTC changes the pay and recruiting structure. havig been an offical at IMCDA last year I’ll be interested in hearing how it turns out (wouldn’t hurt for GTG to contact some of the USAT officials from prior years to get some pointers about the specific courses)
But the questions to the masses is still whether rules enforcement is important to them in deciding which races to do?
“Penalizing the guy who’s buddy is jogging along with him is fair, but takes alot of fun out of the race…which doesn’t make much sense.”
this is exactly the point. USAT is in a bad paradigm right now. plumb’s comment speaks volumes. when you judge a race’s quality based on how many penalties you’ve given out, that’s just a bad place to approach officiating. the question ought to be, how can we make this a clean race with the fewest number of penalties given? that’s the standard.
now, when a gal is 14 or 15 hours into an IM and her husband, who by all appearances does NOT know the rules, comes up alongside during the last mile or two of the run, what do you do? you can give a penalty for that, or you can just tell the guy, “hey, you’ve got to let her do her own thing.”
some years back paula collapsed several hundred yards from the finish. huddle was with her, right next to her, all the way to the finish. out of concern. but, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. you give penalties to both paula and the 15 hour gal, or to neither. everybody knows what pacing looks like. two guys or gals, 300 meters apart, racing for podium spots, a guy on an MTB riding alongside one of them, giving splits, explaining where the other competitor is, and doing so for a long distance, THAT is what you penalize. if it’s not that, you don’t give a penalty. you might warn, but you don’t give a penalty.
USAT needs to do more than just give a mealy-mouthed answer to this. they need to come out strong in favor of what’s right, and do so publicly. but they won’t because to do so now would seem to give credence to the WTC’s recent actions. but, they need to do so anyway, and damn the appearances.
USAT really has four missions: to get olympic and WC medals (to satisfy the USOC); to make races safer; to make races more fair; to grow the sport.
in that light, when you penalize BOPers for really bullshit stuff, when you could easily let it slide or give a warning, is this making the race more safe? is it really, truly, making it more fair? and is it growing the sport?
Amen - too much bullshit in the (IMO) hap hazzard application of rules and dishing out of penalities.
Really dose’nt it come down to in this order -
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Make the race safe to EVERYONE
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Watch and scrutinize the Pros very closely
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Manage the masses of AGs
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Hit the blantant cheaters hard with penalities
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Warn and educate the rest
I care but only about two types of rules. I want them to enforce the rules that are going to make races as safe as possible for me, like keeping riders on the left and obeying cops at intersections, etc. If dude doesn’t want to buckle his chin strap, that’s his bad. The other thing is the blatant drafting from the FOPers. Don’t waste time marshalling the BOPers, let them draft. They’re only doing the race for the social aspect and the challenge of finishing. Like Dan said, you’ll only drive people away. Actually, there’s one more…the littering. Athletes who litter are only killing the sport because venues/cities will stop issuing the permits…just ask the RDs of the old Orange County Triathlon at Lake Mission Viejo. Too much trash and litter = no more event.
You’re wrong, Dan. Draconian iron fists are the way to go on this one! Hang all the cheaters! They should be banned for life. Forget all this reasonable man/woman theory of yours. You should be ashamed of yourself…why that’s downright scandalous of you…advocating looking the other way at cheating…hey, bub, cheating is cheating…
And besides, then we wouldn’t have anything for which to complain about the officiating!
;->
I’m not sure how to answer that question.
On one hand it is definately an important issue that safety rules are followed and implemented properly. Water saftey, course safety etc etc. On the complete other end of the spectrum “minor infractions”, especially those that have no bearing on the outcome of the race, littering, language, nudity etc etc I would not pay much attention to.
All others lye somewhere inbetween. I would prefer a good clean non drafting race, but since I’m a “non podiumer” it has little bearing on me. Same goes for outside assistance and other types of penalties. However knowing that “cheaters” simply ruin teh entire atomosphere I think it’s best for the sport to have good clean races and generally look for them.
Typically as the race gets shorter I get less picky. I think this is likely because I train for longer races and do the shorter ones more for fun. Longer races I look for the USAT sign an have not doen them if it wasn’t there.
~Matt
I doubt that the quality of officiating would affect my decision because I barely notice any officiating at most of my events. There are a few exceptions here.
First, I would care if rules designed to make the sport safer were not enforced and I perceived there to be significantly increased danger as a result. I would also care if a rule designed to make the sport fairer were enforced in a seemingly inexplicable or irrational way against me. Probably not one time because everyone makes mistakes, but if there seemed to be a pattern of it, I would probably hold it against the RD and not come back instead of holding it against the sanctioning body.
USAT does seem to have a lot of rules that seem to be foolish and not related to the reasons for having rules in sports, such as determining who wins, making sure it’s a fair competition, making the competition interesting to spectators and keeping the sport reasonably safe. I really don’t see, for example, why having someone run beside you at the very end of the race or for a little while in the middle of a race really provides a MOPer or BOPer with any sort of unfair advantage. People do it all the time in running road races without anyone caring, and it actually makes the day a little nicer for both specatators and participants.
Dan,
My problem with this sport is that it has too many rules. It’s getting to the point with the rules that you have to constantly think about them almost every step of the way. Silly little rules that will get you tossed right out of the event. As you point out, at some point, and we may already be there, it’s going to turn people away from the sport.
Now think about the constituent sports of swimming, cycling and running, and similar endurance sports such as nordic skiing, or Mtn biking. When competing in those sports, do you conciously have to think about the rules every step of the way? Or even think of the triathlon itself - no one ever get’s DQ’d on the swim or the run( unless they REALLY screw-up, cut the course etc . . .). However compare to the bike leg of a triathlon where 90%+ of these crazy rules are in place. I mean, when you are swimming - you just swim. Out on the run - you just run. However, on the bike the things you have to keep in mind from the second you touch your bike in T1 to when you leave it in T2( neatly racked of course, Handle bars in!!)is mind boggling. That’s why, to a certain degree, I like what the ITU did - swim/bike/run, however you want and the first across the line wins! You don’t even have to police the bike!
Fleck
Don’t waste time marshalling the BOPers, let them draft.
At IM Arizona there were twelve Kona qualifiers finishing over twelve hours. At Ralphs 1/2 there were eight qualifiers finishing over six hours. A mediocre time for mens 30-34 is Kona bound for womens 50-54. In a full IM with no waves, these people are right alongside each other. How do you enforce two sets of rules?
I don’t think a proposed solution to body-mark people who intend to race for a Kona spot would work, because most people think they have a chance of going to Hawaii (even though it is not realistic). The true MOP-BOP crowd doesn’t want to be told they deserve less attention from the officials. No one wants to feel less important, especially a group of IM customers. A lot of BOP types are just competing with themselves to finish, but there are many who will fight to the bitter end to finish 98th in the age group. If everyone wanted a non-competive atmosphere then they would just do stand-alone centuries. There was a spot on the Eagleman registration form to indicate if you were racing for a Kona bid and pretty much the entire field indicated “Competing for Hawaii Ironman spot.”
http://www.triathletemag.com/story.cfm?story_id=10192&pageID=1705
If the bike course is unable to safely accomodate racers and officials, then how does it get sanctioned? We’re heading towards draft-legal…
Sorry to throw the wet blanket . . . but drafting simply isn’t a viable option in triathlons that use roads open to the motoring public. Under the current no-drafting rules, local officials still get a distressing level of complaints from drivers - can you imagine the heat that would arise from packs forming in a draft-legal world? The very-much-poltical permit process would become impossible.
well that was an interesting photo to show. must be a pro plenty of room around him
if we don’t have AG’s officiated, how long before a peloton of top AG’ers goes drafting by a non -drafting pro?
that’ would really look nice. not.
I 'm sorry but drafting is for pussies.
and nascar.
one more comment. I started out running, then started riding in groups centuries etc…then found tri
I don’t ride in groups much anymore but did this morning . I hate it.
you back off for safety reasons when the group slows due to some obstacle you can’t see thru the riders in front of you, lose the draft and their gone.
or, someone does something stupid in front of you and down you go.
I just hope triathlons don’t become like that. There’s something beatiful about the purity of having to decide - A. do I have the stuff to pass this guy, or, B. do I have to back off and get in line without drafting.
I can’t say it enough times drafting sucks. you want to rest, pedal slower.
I was being a bit of a smart-ass. But seriously Lew, how does a race gain sanctioning if the course doesn’t allow for the safe passage of cyclists and a motorcycle on the course, at the same time? It just seems to me that this would be a huge safety issue and a huge determining factor when USAT decides to grant a sanction or not.
I don’t want to be a smartass either - but your question gets us into Vioxx territory. In other words, when the people in charge of safety decisions have a financial stake in the answer, the answers tend to be those which maximize the income.