“Self-experimentation is cool, but not when it is both misguided and unguided, and involves hacking up expensive pieces of equipment just to look like one of your cycling heroes.”
“In other words, for minimal aero drag the forearms should be tilted slightly upwards, never flat and especially never down. Not-so-incidentally, this is essentially what everyone else, e.g., Boone Lennon, has also always found”
I saw this pic in another thread and just had to stir up the debate we had last week about my “misguided hacking” as RipVanWinkle asserted. These look like Visiontech bars that either have no upturn to them or have been “misguidedly hacked”. Anyone have news about the newest Visiontech bars? ?
In the second pic, look at the angle in Lance’s forearms. Looks like he “screwed up” and has his wrists below his “elbow crease,” right? I wonder if Cobb helped him establish that position? Cause his forearms definetly are not “turned slightly upwards.”
what do you think RipVW? You should write lance and jens about their mistakes in positioning.
My assertion is that aero position has not yet defined with a large degree of certainty what is the “perfect” position and that aero positions are highly individualized. and thus, at the present time one individual shouldnt have the audacity to be the judge of what is “fast” and what isnt. It takes a reasonable degree of experimentation to find what works best for you.
lance seems like an intelligent guy, why do you think he’s making this aerodynamic mistake? Wouldnt you think he has power data that is telling him otherwise? Or at least some other data or information that perhaps you and I dont have?
maybe cobb pulled the info from the web that you cited in the other thread because he discovered that he was wrong?
“Second, you probably don’t make nearly as much power as Armstrong”
Yeah i know so…but relative power increases are important. Our power numbers arent anywhere in the same ballpark but the percent increase in power relative to a tighter cockpit should be very similar. I know that my new position flies in the face of “the most aero position” such as the superman position. It makes sense that if the superman position is the fastest (aerodynamically) then pulling the elbows back and the cockpit shorter should be less aero. But I’m looking at the theoretical power increase for using more muscles to turn the pedals such as the trunk muscles and upper body.
If i could hop into a windtunnel and test the position while riding a computrainer i would, so that i could measure both drag at the moment of power production, but ofcourse that is infeasible.
and to say that self experimentation is meaningless without hard data like windtunnel access----is kind of bull. I believe that there is a value to seeing what works for you, what feels more powerful and what feels faster. I would rather put myself into a position where i FEEL faster with no hard data supporting it, than to blindly put myself into a position that cobb says works for lance but which feels slower for me.
"I would rather put myself into a position where i FEEL faster with no hard data supporting it, than to blindly put myself into a position that cobb says works for lance but which feels slower for me. "
I was Kart racing up at Sears Point Raceway a few months back. The fastest lap I put on the clock was the one I felt was the slowest…
Even if you don’t like his delivery, Ripper is correct. You must at least use a stopwatch and the same course, over and over, to determine what position seems to work best for YOU. You can’t really go by “feel”. DOn’t forget, if you are doing triathlons, you must also test your position in front of a run. He isn’t saying you have to have a windtunnel…although that would be nice. You just have to have good method of determining the differences between positions…including the subsequent run.
Most of us here race as amateurs, and therefore do so for enjoyment. There might be some people who would trade a few seconds of actual speed for the perception of speed… hell I’d give away a little time if I felt like I was flying through the bike leg.
Now I don’t think this is what jeremyb was talking about, and I agree with the previous posters that going by feel is not a good way to measure actual speed. But I though I’d throw this out as something to think about.
“It makes sense that if the superman position is the fastest (aerodynamically) …”
I’ve heard from a reliable source that for some people the Superman position is not the most aerodynamic.
What I find intersting is that RVW made a categorical statement that all the “straight guys” are making a mistake and going with a slower set-up and then later says you can’t make categorical statements about what is faster. IME, straight bars allow a lower, more narrow, and more comfortable position. While I have yet to my new position in the windtunnel, I think it is safe to say that I will probably be faster with a lower, narrower, and more comfortable position.
When Boardman was preparing for the '92 Olympics and his '93 hour record, he did a lot of work with Peter Keen ( and I believe mike Burrows) to develop the fastest position for him. What they came up with was the very low front end, forearms level and pointed straight ahead, and widely spaced armrests so that the upper arms were directly in front of the thighs. I recall that one of the reasons given was that the position works best in allowing clean airflow between the riders legs, esp with a thin, bladed seatpost, and minimizes frontal area.
Prior to that, Boardman was riding with his forearms pointed upwards.
Whether forearms are best level or angled upwards probably has something to do with torso angle, no?
“Show me where I said that individual differences were relevant to the issue of arm angle.”
Is that not what you are saying here?:
"Second, you probably don’t make nearly as much power as Armstrong, so whatever trade-offs he has chosen to make don’t necessarily apply to you. "
I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement. Personally, I don’t care what you believe. If you believe one post by John Cobb on a message board a long time ago is the last word on the issue, then so be it. I’ve just got to ask you one question though - between Zipp 404’s versus HED3’s, which do you believe is faster?
“In other words, for minimal aero drag the forearms should be tilted slightly upwards, never flat and especially never down. Not-so-incidentally, this is essentially what everyone else, e.g., Boone Lennon, has also always found”
How does that jive with Boardman’s position on the lotus, Corima, Hotta, etc? ie. forearms level and pointed straight ahead?
Speaking of Boardman, I heard that he was using on 170 mm cranks for his Olympic Gold in Barcelona as well as in his first World Hour record attempt. Does anyone know if this is true ?
Not sure at what point in the prologue the photo was taken. Either on a hill or in the finishing straight, is my guess.
Anyhow, you’re right in that it had been a while since his windtunnel work with Burrows. But Boardman was in the tunnel in '96 getting ready for his second hour attempt, and very well may have been back in the tunnel after that after the Superman was banned to work on his ‘normal’ position. I simply don’t know on that score. Don’t forget, this was a very analytical guy whose salary depended on 8-10 minutes in July, I doubt that he did anything in the prologue without first checking to see if it would work.
RVW, why is it so important for you to be “right” on this issue? That’s a mighty small box you’re painting yourself into. The ONLY point in your arguments that I can agree with 100% is that only well controlled, repeatable tests can determine whether or straight bars work FOR ANY INDIVIDUAL to make them faster. But just because it works or doesn’t work for any particular individual does not mean that rule applies to all or even a majority of riders.
"All that you really prove by adopting the straight bar style de jour is that you’re a slave to fashion. "
RVW, I challenge you to try the straight position and see what you think. I bet you would like it and I bet you would not find yourself to be any slower.
As for aping Ulrich, he is not the only one riding straight bars. The Gerolsteiner team has been using them longer than he has, as have a lot of other riders and triathletes (Simoni, Thurig, Lothar Leder, etc.).
Lance Armstrong. According to VN he has been in the windtunnel refining his position. The photo is the result of that, Therefor I assume he has his arms in his best position.
Actually I agree with most of your points in this discussion, but I think your getting somewhat picky. Under both Cobb and his current aero gurus Armstrong has been trying to maximize speed on the road. I’ve never heard Cobb say he was “just” trying to maximize aero, and the recent article in VN states that a rider of similar stature was first used as a stand in for LA, then LA was put in the tunnel, now they are doing real world testing in early season races. This hardly counts as maximizing the bars aerodynamics without a rider.
The other point I wish to make is that Cobb has done good work but his results have to be viewed skeptically. He is a retailler and product designer so he has an agenda beyond just altruistically providing information. This is not to single him out any more than any other person in his position. Every product designer will give data showing their product is the best. Besides Cobb himself has stated that many thing influence aeroness and its difficult to separate out individual items. (I’m paraphrasing) He has vacillitated on steep versus slack, water bottle position, aero seatpost, 404 versus H3, etc., so I wouldn’t take wrist position as gospel, (but I do find it more comfortable).
