The Retul guys worked for Andy Pruitt, BG Fit University was put together by Pruitt.
Has anyone had experience with both systems? What are the cons and the pros to either? How do they correspond to FIST fitting?
It appears the the BG Fit Univ. doesn’t use a fit bike, but goes straight to setting the rider up on the bike they’ll be riding.
I was set up on a fit bike (at a premier fit store) and when I was put on my P2C, it felt like the fit bike session had been a waste of time. thoughts?
I just got fit by Andy last week, and had a conversation with Sean about the technical aspects of the differences of the two motion-capture systems. He said there are significant differences between them (one being cost of entry for the equipment), including being able to capture the data all at once with the BCSM system. I can’t speak for Retul, although a riding buddy was fit last week and was happy with it. I’m still amassing my parts in order to put the fit into play, but from what was demonstrated to me my issues do need to be addressed sooner than later.
The one thing I will say without question is that if you have any sort of physical or anatomical issue(s) whatsoever, Dr. Pruitt is without question one of the best in the business, if not the best. The Medical 3D fit was incredibly comprehensive, including the medical history and exam.
As a bonus, you also get to hear some fantastic stories about riders in the pro peloton, for example a recent fit that resulted in riders from Team Saxo Bank giving a fellow rider endless grief about his new ‘girl seat’. That is, until they saw him ride later in the day. Apparently Bjarne Riis was stunned with the change, which resulted in +35 watts of power for the rider…
I’ve heard great things about Retul as well, and my buddy was happy with the fit, but I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to go back to BCSM.
Oh yeah, there is little resemblance to a FIST fitting in my opinion, as the data used to determine fit are quite different (one being dynamic, the other being more static). My initial fit on my P3 was done by FIST-cert’d guys here in town, and it’s just a completely different approach, though it may or may not result in a similar fit, depending on the person. I go back for my TT bike in a month after I’ve adapted to the shoes and (girl) seat… 
So do you have anymore details about the seat change that resulted in a 35 watt gain in …FTP I assume? No change in height or st angle, just a seat swap gave an international pro level rider 35 watts? That is the ability to push down with several kilos more force because this rider was sitting on something different(ly)? Amazing. Where do I buy one?
Second, FIST fittings are not static. One of the main points of the fitting is the dynamic, as you pedal we move things aspect. Of course this reqires the proper equipment, but once you have it there’s nothing static about it. The motionless part where you measure certain angles could be viewed as static to the untrained, but it isn’t.
Dave Luscan
www.endorphinfitness.com
So do you have anymore details about the seat change that resulted in a 35 watt gain in …FTP I assume? No change in height or st angle, just a seat swap gave an international pro level rider 35 watts? That is the ability to push down with several kilos more force because this rider was sitting on something different(ly)? Amazing. Where do I buy one?
It wasn’t so much the specific seat as it was being on the wrong width seat. This rider (like me) was practically falling of the edges of his seat, and since the sitbones weren’t supported, he couldn’t rotate his hips forward on the seat without peeing blood (which he still did). Once he could support his weight on his skeletal system rather than his soft tissue, he could use all that musculature more effectively to push the pedals, and his previously laid-out position all came together.
FWIW, the seat was the Specialized Toupe 155 in both our cases. I was on a 143; my left sit-bone was not on the seat, the right one was right on the edge of it. I’ve got a left hip problem, in addition to some degenerative disc disease a bit ahead of my age, so none of this was helping. Not that it matters because everyone is different, but in 20 years of riding even the wrong-size Toupe was the ONLY seat that has never given me a bit of numbness issues. I was hesitant to try it when I bought my bike, but the bike shop soerced me to try it even though I thought by looking at it that it would be incredibly uncomfortable. Its uniqueness in design was apparently stumbled upon quite by accident, but the result was phenomenal, in my opinion.
Second, FIST fittings are not static. One of the main points of the fitting is the dynamic, as you pedal we move things aspect. Of course this reqires the proper equipment, but once you have it there’s nothing static about it. The motionless part where you measure certain angles could be viewed as static to the untrained, but it isn’t.
Of course FIST fitting is somewhat dynamic, but the BCSM system takes ‘dynamic’ to a whole 'nother level. Trust me, they are all about motion, not trying to stop a limb mid-pedal to measure an angle, (although they do get the traditional kneecap-over-pedal measurements that way). You wouldn’t believe how much time they spent just watching me pedal under load while asking questions, in addition to all the oft-reported computer wizardry. It was quite an experience.
Thanks for the great reply.
Now, how does the BCSM compare to the BG Fit University bachelors and masters program offered by Specialized?
Check out this multi article feature on Dr.Pruitt
That was a really great trio of articles.
So, is Specialized’s BG FiT University the same program they use at BCSM?
One comment, BCSM’s evaluation showed discrepancies between his left/right knee movement patterns, the right knee going higher than the left knee. They provided shims and adjustments to help correct this, but they did not address his cycling mechanics. They skip past the thought that maybe the rider is pedaling with poor mechanics and jump straight to providing adjustments and wedges to help with alignment. This is similar to a person switching to orthodics or supportive running shoes instead of addressing the movement in their running that is leading to the injury. It seems like a pretty big thought process to ignore. And it seems ignorant to think that everybody knows how to turn the pedals properly, or worse yet, as is the paradigm in running, that every one has their own individual technique for turning the pedals.
As Slowman opens with in his ‘saga’ on FIST fitting, “‘Every person is different,’ is a trite way to attempt escape from under a more impactful truism: ‘Bodies are a lot more alike than they are different.’”
Just as this applies to fit position, it also applied to human movement. I see motion capture as more than a means to recommend adjustments and wedges, but a way to illustrate biomechanical flaws that cause injuries.
What they use at BCSM is nothing like what Specialized is putting in their stores. BCSM uses a motion capture system from Vicon, about $100K worth of equipment. It’s also used by Eric Heiden and Max Testa at their facility (I can’t remember if they’re still at UC Davis). The Specialized stuff is, I believe, Dartfish, or very Dartfish-like, and is not motion capture, it’s video with drawing tools just like many similar products on the market. Retul, like the Vicon system, is a 3D motion capture tool, and is so accurate, it’s used by one US federation to check the accuracy of their Vicon system!
All are tools, and rely on the fitter to properly place body markers for accurate measurements. If you look around, you’ll find plenty of people who had both positive and negative experiences with even the “best” fitters and fitting tools.
All are tools, and rely on the fitter to properly place body markers for accurate measurements.
Correct, and even more important than markers placement is what you do with the vaste amount of data such a system can provide. As a regular user of Vicon for more than 10 years and other 3D motion analysis tools, the most important thing is ‘what is your question’? No tool provides you the question or method/philosophy to address an issue. Only you brain can do that. However, a tool can limit the questions you can ask, so yes some systems are better than others depending on the task/question. Many people make the mistake to think that a fancy electronic tool or impressive visual display provides the answer. It can help an end user to understand some characteristics of a movement, but it’s not the answer.
Thank you for the explanation. Would anybody recommend the Specialized system for a store that only offers FIST fittings?
Has anyone been fitted using the Specialized BG FIT University system?
Is there anyone here who has gone through the Specialized program and if so, what is your opinion?
Thanks.
Hi all - I’m new to the forum and was hoping to revive this thread. I’ve had a nagging hamstring injury for several months. It gets better with rest but returns after 2-3 days riding. I need to have someone take a careful look at my bike fit and am considering Retul vs Boulder Center for Sports Medicine (BCSM). I’m leaning toward the medical fit with BCSM since they are trained as physical therapists. But I gather Todd Carver of Retul worked at BCSM for several years? If anyone has thoughts on the differences or experiences with both, that would be very helpful. They both may be very good and use slightly different systems to arrive at the same point. It’s kind of hard to sift through all the marketing material with these new fit systems that “revolutionize” the process.
Thanks!