I’d 100% have LeBron in the starting 5. I just don’t think he had the assassin mentality like MJ and Kobe. I’m not one of those LeBron haters. Dude is good at everything on the basketball court. To average ~25 ppg at 40 years old is insane.
The difference between MJ and Kobe is that MJ thought that a wide open Paxon or Kerr had a better chance at making a shot than a double teamed Jordan. I’ve seen Kobe force a shot up while literally quintuple teamed.
“Kobe did well on a team where he was the leader.”
It bugged Kobe to no end that he had to play second fiddle to Shaq while Allen Iverson was on the opposite coast taking over half (literally) of the teams shots per game.
Shaq left after 3 championships because Kobe threatened to go to the Clippers if Shaq stayed on the team.
I will say, a top 5 team would be interesting if you had to take into account the ability to wrk with each other.
With that, I think Magic, Lebron, and/or Bird would be high picks for me.
Somewhat fittingly, using your revised formula, Steve Nash by my count gets 41 points, to sit right next to Nowitzki.
(also not bad for a guy who didn’t play defense a day in his life)
Edit: yeah I realize he was outside the top 30 on that original article. But several guys in that category would bounce people off the end of your current list. Payton, Kidd, Rodman - for example.
I do think you’re weighted a little heavy towards defensive-minded players, however.
Absolutely. I’m sort of discounting the ability to work together and just focused on who is best on paper.
Also, what era of NBA are we talking about really matters. Centers are borderline worthless in the current game. If we are making an all-time team based on the way the game is currently played you’d be nuts to not put Curry on a starting team or a 7-footer like Nowitzki or Jokic that can actually shoot from anywhere.
The right coach goes a long way towards getting players to work together. Coach K did a pretty good job of that on his Olympic squads.
Just to your initial post: I think there are also some… hmm maybe intangibles is too strong, but difficult to track stats. No idea how I would value them.
Windy mentioned the rules being changed because of a player. That applies to a few players on this list. Removal of hand-checking and allowing zone defense were mostly reactions to Jordan and Shaq.
Also there are some stats (ex: foul-outs) which aren’t directly attributed to who caused it. It would be a fun data project to dig up some historical stats and look into things like - for games in which [Player] started, find the average # of players on the other team who fouled out. Compare that to the overall average.
Or just use free throws attempted as a much faster proxy
I dunno… Russell, 11 championships in 13 years…I get it different era, kinda like the whole Bobby Orr discussion… but still,
Wilt really does deserve to be ahead of Shaq
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4 of the last 5 MVPs were centers.
You know what I meant.
Actually i don’t, and I don’t mean that to be a smart ass.
FWIW, what you said and how I understand the game to have evolved, your comment made a lot of sense until I looked up the MVP list and was surprised to see a bunch of centers.
Now, it is my understanding that centers have to be much more mobile & athletic than they used to be (excepting maybe Wilt and Russell).
Also, it is definitely not a center’s game like it was in the 60s in 70s, either. For example:
4 of the last 5 MVPs were centers
BUT
the previous 20 MVPs were not centers.
Then 3 of the next 18 until you get to Moses Malone.
But from 56 - 83 you had 23 out of 26 MVPs were centers with Chamberlain, Russel, Jabbar, Unseld, Reed, Cowens, McAdoo, Walton, and Malone.
So after 1983, 16% of the MVPs were centers. Before 1983, 82% were centers .
Interesting…
I’m talking about what we all think of as a stereotypical NBA center. The really big guy that plays post up offense and has extremely limited range. Think Shaq, Ewing, Parish, Walton, M. Malone, Robinson, etc. That type of player has almost little utility in today’s game. The 7 footers now can shoot like guards and small forwards from years back.
“4 of the last 5 MVPs were centers.”
Well, three of that four were the same guy - Nikola Jokic. He’s a center in name only as they need to give him some kind of position title. He launches 250-300 three point shots per year and shoots nearly 40% from the 3 point line.
Embiid was the other MVP “center.” Again, 38% of his shot attempts are threes so he has range that centers of previous eras did not.
The “centers” today play more like Larry Bird than they do Patrick Ewing or Shaq.
Got it. Thanks
This. Jordan #1, Kobe #2, #3 is a long drop…
Put any other 3 players with them and they would beat any “top 5 players”.
Pippen at 21 or 28 - that’s a joke. Rodman did more for the Bulls then Pippen.
I’d pick Bird over Kobe on a team game. Kobe had too much of an only-I-can-do-it. Bird was just as competitive and made others better.
Bird should be higher than 15, or even 8.
I think you guys are answering a different question. “Who are the greatest 5, 10, 30 players?” is not the same as “who would I want if I were building a team?”
There is one list upon which Bird is uncontested #1
Didn’t Jordan and Kobe basically play the same position?