Record -vs- Chorus. (ShimaNO still sucks though)

Triathlon Forum
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I tried to post this twice yesterday (As a reply to Shimano / Campy thread) but my ISP kept dumping and I lost my long rambling post twice.

Let me start off with the fact that I have the new Record 10 Carbon on order and cant wait to get it.

Someone had asked about why carbon on so many bike parts, and are they better? My simple answer - NO. I currently own a Record9Ti rear der, and the new Record9Ti / carbon rear der (as well as the 10 speed rear der w/carbon and Aluminum cage). For sake of comparison I will refer only to the two 9 speed Rear Der’s.

On the bike - in the saddle the only way you can tell one from the other (Carbon - Aluminum body) is by sound when shifting. I can not perceive any performance improvement at all with the carbon cage. In the palm of your hand it is the same…sure the carbon one is a few GRAMS lighter than the all Aluminum one, however with out a gram scale you could not tell that one was lighter than that other. I do prefer the carbon der as it is louder when the chain snaps into a smaller cog (and ShitmaNO riders get freaked a bit when they hear me snap that chain into a smaller cog). So, is there a performance gain with the carbon? No, hell - I can loose a few grams cutting my toenails.

Now, the Chorus factor…

So, you are a bad ass - and you want the best. You know you want to go to the top of the food chain and get Campy as that ShimaNO stuff you have had to replace every 4 years is just wearing your wife’s skin thin…time for investment quality gear. Time to justify the money you spend…time to get Campagnolo!!! Anyways…you are looking in the magazine that came with your wife’s Victoria’s Secret and turn to the grouppo page…there it is…Record 10 Carbon (suddenly you don’t care at all about what Victoria is keeping from you). Do you get that new Record…or “settle” for Chorus that is on the same page for HUNDREDS of $$$ less?

Used to be that you had to get Record to get the ultra cool 4 arm spider crank…not any more. Now you get that with the standard non-carbon crank Chorus, sans the Teflon coating that is on the chain rings of Record…I think that maybe some Butter Flavor Pam would have the same effect as the Teflon coated chain rings.

Used to be that you had to get Record to get the ultra cool carbon Ergo levers…not any more. Only now the Record has some new super slick pivot coating…possibly you could use KY jelly to get that kind of frictionless action out of the now former Record Lever that is rebranded to the lowly “Chorus” status.

Used to be that you had to get Record for the super cool “hidden bolt” brake calipers…not any more. Chorus calipers are now Centaur calipers and the Chorus gets the old Record (with the new super slick lubricant in the calipers).

Hell, even Centaur has retired Record parts in it - the Ergo levers USED to be the Record levers, Front Der USED to be Record, Rear Der was Chorus (Record minus the Titanium bolts). So, you take Centaur and put on a Record BB - you damn near have 1999-2000 Record9! For much less money (but no less performance).

So…at the end of the day…will you know that you are on Record as opposed to Chorus when you are at your VO2 max and slamming into that 53x11 on the final sprint? Nope. Will you know you are on Record when you are climbing up that 15% grade for 12 miles? Nope. It is easy to justify the price of Record over Chorus…for me…yes - but I am sick.

At the end of the day I will always be on Record because I never want to look at my bike and think “Boy I wish I had…” I am just so curious why the Japs cant get a clue and turn DA 7700 into Ultegra, Ultegra into 105 and so on. I wonder how many more years it will take them to have another group that is affordable for Average Joe with kids - and have interoperability with their flagship 10 speed group.

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“It is easy to justify the price of Record over Chorus…for me…”

But not for me. When you have a daughter in college and a son not far behind you have to think in terms of value for the money, not just bikes but everything. Would LOVE to have Record but when I eventually build up my “rest of my life bike” it will have Campy on it, most likely Chorus.

But until my kids have graduated and are on their own, the three bikes I have now will have to last while and I’ll just have to suffer with crappy old Dura-Ace, Ultegra and 105.

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Cervelo - part of my justification is that I dont pay retail price for it…I get it at wholesale. I get Record for less than Colorady Cyclist charges for Chorus.

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“part of my justification is that I dont pay retail price for it”

Lucky you. That would make a big difference. Just curious - what is the typical retail mark up % on bike components?

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Thanks for replying to my post. I do agree that it is incredible that Campy “rolls down” their record group to their “lower.” I had no idea about the new Chorus until you posted it the other day. I really do want to put Chorus on my next road bike, but I just bought a new tri bike ao I’ll have to wait a while. That plus other expensive hobbies are creeping their way in. As for Shimano, I’ve been pretty happy with the groups I have. I may be in the minority, but I think the new DA crank looks like dog shit.

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I too think that the new DA is UGLY.

I think that the premise of a “stiffer” BB and crank arm is flawed. How many people here have EVER said “Boy, you see that crank arm flexing!”? or “Boy, that BB axle is like a noodle!!”? Fact is the design is nothing new and is about 15 years old. Magic Motorcycle came up with that system years back - and was then black balled by Canondale (Crankandfail, Can-of-ale) and changed to “Coda” (karma payback was Cannondales failed Motorcycle idiot ideas).

I have said it before - but to me it seems that ShitmaNO is worried about perfecting the problems we just dont have. They are 4 years behing the curve on 10 speeds and have now caused a HUGE gap in their group structure (again) with new DA not being compatible with anything (again).

Come to think of it - the BB design was altered years back by Phil Wood when they decided to do a beveled edge on the BB and use lock rings and a pressure fit to get their BB into a shell with any threads in it. This was cool at the time being as Italian threads were as common as English (and you did not see to much of the moronic “self loosening” French threads ). I can hear Pasquel now…“lets make the threads in the OPPOSITE direction of them dirty Americans!!! Damn the Italians too…we need our own way”…as Laurent Fignon crashes out of the Tour of Spain with his BB still attached to the crank arm - that is still attached to his shoes via toe clip (my not be an actual event). I mean seriously - what is ShitmaNO perfecting here? The FRENCH design? Certainly there are not many if any flaws with the current BB systems out there (I even wonder again about the justification of ISIS and the idiot tooling required with the spline systems out there).

Mavic also had a BB design much like that of the Wood…great design and a common upgrade at the time over the ShitmaNO loose ball and cup systems that ShitmaNO and Crampandgoslow were using at the time.

So, now we have a stiffer crank…great. I always thought that the big culprit behind flex was the FRAME…remember THAT Shimano? FRAME? Thats right…a WEAK LINK!!! Make that there crank stiffer (but still only a machine that can press hundreds of tons can tell that it is any stiffer than a 1988 Shimano 600 crank arm for gods sake). Lets make a system where we need our local IBD to buy all kinds of special new tools too. I wonder at what point is it that they are going to make a SUPER STIFF pedal? How much flex is in that there Speedplay spindle? Who has a laser measuring device?

Hell, I need to go home and remove the pading from my shoes as I bet that there is deflection in that - and that means that energy that SHOULD be going to the pedal is being wasted on compressing the shoe liners…damnit…when will it ever end?

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Record9ti,

U R hilarious with your Record Rant. Shimano may suck for you, but when was the last time you were on Shimano. But I must agree with you, as far as beautiful design, the Chorus is at the top of the list. But what is up with that super expensive all Carbon crank.

                FIRELUV
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I found this old thread and HAD to dig it out…still pertains to today.

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I don’t know, I see a few things that have changed:

  • Your rant on cranks and the chase after stiffness. Mind you I agree with you that Square taper is pretty f’in fool proof and functional. Yet Campy has jumped on the band wagon of the ever stiffer, outboard bearing, bigger spindle crankset.

  • Campy has now gone to a 10 and 11 speed dual system, much as Shimano at the time of your rant had spread out across 9 and 10 speed.

  • There is now a 3rd player in Sram, that has to be mentioned. Good ergonomics. Option to use Shimano compatible wheels.

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Yeah, I have had two Record OUTBOARD BB’s fail and have bearing issues. Never heard of anyone anywhere having a failure with the carbon/ti internal square taper.

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Yeah, I have had two Record OUTBOARD BB’s fail and have bearing issues. Never heard of anyone anywhere having a failure with the carbon/ti internal square taper.
One of mine shat itself, but it did have about 60,000km on it.

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While the Ultra bearings do not last as long as some most short life Ultra bearings are the results of poor frame prep.

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First of all, Shitmano doesn’t just suck, it sucks AND swallows.

Where is the least expensive Campy deal you have seen online? I’m not going to replace another broken STI shifter on the Ultegra dirve…it’s history. Next time a drive part goes down I’m done with it!

Would love to know of your fav site, even though you get it at wholesale I’m sure you might know more than I do in where to look…thanks.

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I will let the Lynkeys know :slight_smile:
.

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road bike? chorus all the way. that said, i think i’m going to pull the parts off of my current tri bike and try shimano electric on it. that experiment might be a few months coming, but, one of these days i’m going to get around to that.

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I’ve always had road bikes with Campy on them. Had an italian top end steel road bike with record once (still hangs from the rafters), but it was replaced with a Lightspeed ti with Chorus that was better than my record components. When I bought my first tri bike (carbon) I went with Ultegra on a P2. Seemed like a good balace frame/component wise. I love it.

As for your original question: it’s plastic all the way. Great for picking up my dog’s poop.

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Why ride the third best when you can get SRAM.

CampaNOGO and ShimaNO - you see both have NO right in the name.

Ride the best and lightest group you can get = SRAM!

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You know that built up Super Record is lighter than Red right? The OE Package of Red is lighter than Record, BUT - the cables and housing for Red in OE form are much shorter than those that ship with Campy - thus the groupset is about 200gm lighter as new. When actually built they are about even and within a hair cut from each other in weight…and oddly too light for UCI for road racing use on many current framesets.

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Why ride the third best when you can get SRAM.

CampaNOGO and ShimaNO - you see both have NO right in the name.

Ride the best and lightest group you can get = SRAM!

Ok, so I’ve been looking at a new road bike. Right now, I’m running all Dura Ace (except Ultegra brifters), but I’m thinking about SRAM Force for the new roadie. Not sure I can spring for Red, it’s $400 more from Force–Red, but only $150 from Rival–Force. Thus, I think I’m going to go with Force.

Can anyone comment on the performance of the Force grouppo? I’ve done some reading, and have heard people brag that Red is superior to Dura Ace (not saying that is true or not, just stating what I’ve read). How does Force compare to Dura Ace shifting performance? I think I like the double-tap feature of the SRAM shifters, can’t wait to get my hands on them.

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http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/sram-force-road-groupset

in a sentence - it’s incredibly hard to justify buying Red, when Force works jsut as well, is only slightly heavier, and quite a bit cheaper.

that said, they expect improvements to Red for next year to make the higher price more palatable.

I’d still take campy in a second though. Love the Record/Chorus on my roadie.