Ok. I just finished reading Tom D’s reviews of the Cervelo R2.5 and P3SL. I happen to agree whole heartedly with Tom on the R2.5, I absolutely love mine. And I was all set to buy another one and set it up as my tri-bike, until I read Tom’s review of the Cervelo P3SL.
So now I am completely confused as to the true benefit of an aerodynamic frameset with race wheels (no disc, mid front and 4 spoke rear) for the average guy who is making his transition from sprint/olympic to half/full ironman distance. I average somewhere between 1:06-1:12 for the olympic bike splits (depending upon course) and expect to average somewhere between 5:20 and 5:50 for an ironman bike split (depending upon the course).
So the question is will a “true” areo frameset, like the P3 or one of its variants, really make a substantial difference for me? Why or why not and how much or little benefit do you think I will realize based on what I posted above?
I can’t* really *provide you with a quantifiable and empiracle answer. I don;t have the ability or insight to say: “Bike model ________ will save you _: over ____ distance.”
I’ve seen tests that have substantiated that, but then seen those same tests subjected to significant scepticism surrounding everything including their motive and their testing protocols.
Now, here is my opinion: I’ve had many aero bikes and many round tube bikes. I think I am a good margin faster on a well designed aero tube bike with a good riding position.
I know that isn’t the answer you were looking for. I wish there was one source you could go to that would simply prove, once and for all, what (if in fact, any) time savings there are.
Try the Google search on “bicycle aerodynamics” and spend a half hour surfing around through the results. fascinating stuff and well worth the investment in time.
I think I am faster on an aero bike, P3 in particular. I simply can’t quantify how much faster though.
If you ride a 1:06-1:12 40k split you will be hard pressed to ride a 5:20 Ironman and have good legs. I would think most 5:20 Ironmen would probably be closer to an hour flat for 40k. It is pretty hard to hold a good aero position for the Ironman distance.
That is why my current vote is to work on your position to be as aero and comfortable as possible, rather than the trick frame for the long distances. I have ridden in the neutral support cars at Ironman HI a few times and watched and/or competed there several more times and I can’t believe how many trick aerobikes have a rider on the tops of their bars for miles on end.
There is no doubt that an areo bike with an aero rider is faster when all systems are working, but sitting up, drinking , eating, standing on climbs, and taking handups all effect the aero stuff too. If you can afford to get all the latest stuff go for it, but for my money a good fitting and coaching is way more important than a new frame. G
Thanks for the reply. I really was looking for your opinion, I did not expect nor would I hold you to a number. I think I am just trying to get out of my own way, so to speak, when I make this decision. Sometimes I feel like there is too much information available and the interpretation of said information leads to more questions rather than answers.
Don’t set yourself up for dissapointment. I ride ~57min for 40km and did a 5:10 at IMC… I had some nutrition issues, but my goal was 5flat… if you’re a 1:06 rider, aim for something like 5:30 as a best case scenerio (flat course, no wind).
Thanks for the input. First thing I did when I made the decision to move from sprint/olympic to half/full ironman distance was to hire a coach that has had very good success in IM. And we have a plan to get me to the 5:30+/- range over the course of the next 18-24 months. I do not expect to do 5:20 in my first year of effort at IM distance.
That said I think I was leaning toward what you mention in your middle paragraph regarding comfort and aero. I agree with you completely when I see people with all of the “trick” equipment that cannont stay in their aero positions for more than 15-30 minutes at a strech.
Maybe I was not clear enough when I was assuming that I would be able to achieve a comfortable and aero position on a “truly” aero frameset and in that case would it yield a substantial benefit, whatever a substantial benefit would be.
Thanks. I am hoping that my expectations are fairly realistic 18-24 months from now if I follow my coach’s plan to the letter. But I am in no way expecting to go 5:20 in my first endeavor into the IM distance. As a matter of fact I will probably be targeting something more like 5:45 to make sure that I have some legs left for a very long day.
I think I missed something in that review. I should have (maybe) pointed out that any advantage and aero bike may provide is contingent on the course. In other words, I wager an aero bike at Ironman Florida is going to make a significant difference on many athletes. That same bike wouldn’t do anything on a bike course like Nice.
Interestingly, the P3SL in the photo shoot is mine. I built it for the Laguna Phuket Triathlon in Thailannd next Sunday. We’ve been oddly busy, so I will have to pass on the race for this year (I was supposed to leave tomorrow). I did it last year. Great race.
Anyway. The first 15km of the race are hilly. Short, steep, nasty climbs- three of them, called “The Tiger’s Back”. It is the Southeast Asian equivalent of “The Beast” at St. Croix.
I was originally going to use the same R2.5 I used at the Nice Triathlon in France about 6 weeks ago. Then I got to thinking about how much flat road there is after the climbs in Thailand. I was salivating over how much time I could make up on those flats. Last year I rode sections of that course with Scott Molina and Normann Stadler. We were flat out the whole way at 28 mph.
I built the P3SL up for Thailand knowing I could buy a… I won’t even venture a guess here, bunch of time with a faster bike.
Don’t set yourself up for dissapointment. I ride ~57min for 40km and did a 5:10 at IMC… I had some nutrition issues, but my goal was 5flat… if you’re a 1:06 rider, aim for something like 5:30 as a best case scenerio (flat course, no wind).
I just don’t wan tyou to bo dissapointed.
But then again, my buddy has an oly PR at 1:05.51 and just turned in a 5:19 at IMFL.
I think he has fairly realistic expectations; 5:20-5:50 depending on the course and other factors.
If its a tri-bike - buy an aero-tubed bike. Assuming position is the same - what do you have to lose (a little extra weight)? Granted its probably not that much faster (and there are at least 25 things that are more important in choosing a bike - maybe even 26 things…) but at least you won’t sit around after buying a round tube bike wondering/thinking that you could have had a possibly faster bike…
Buy the P3 if you have the cash and it fits well. You’ll go 5:20-5:50 (esp. after 18-24 months and with a good coach).
Don’t set yourself up for dissapointment. I ride ~57min for 40km and did a 5:10 at IMC… I had some nutrition issues, but my goal was 5flat… if you’re a 1:06 rider, aim for something like 5:30 as a best case scenerio (flat course, no wind).
I just don’t wan tyou to bo dissapointed.
But then again, my buddy has an oly PR at 1:05.51 and just turned in a 5:19 at IMFL.
I think he has fairly realistic expectations; 5:20-5:50 depending on the course and other factors.
The real answer here is that an aero frame with a “properly fitted” rider will be the answer. When I was the owner of Elite and Steve’s, we sent Ken Glah to the wind tunnel with John Cobb. Here’s what we learned.
Aero frame is always better if it is designed right, doesn’t flex under power and fits the rider. Meaning, not all ‘aero’ bikes are truely aero.
The rider must be fitted on the bike properly. Very aggressive rider (aero) does NOT mean more Power. Ken came back all “aero” but his watts dropped. i.e. you must combine aerodynamics with power.
If you think you are aero, are on a kick ass bike, race wheels, cool clothing, new helmet, freshly shaved, you will mentally ride faster in your mind and apply it to real life.
You, your body, and your mind will dictate the real result. Aero bike or not, if your legs won’t move it, you aren’t going to reap the benefits.
I agree that a non aerobike may be faster on a specific course, but just because of fit, weight or some other factor. Your R2.5 would still be faster, even in an uphill TT if the tubes were shaped like an airfoil (at the same weight). Maybe only by a few seconds, but aerotube will always be faster.
But speaking of unrealistic expectations, this was his first Ironman and he expected to run 3:15ish.
He did a damn good job though. I think it goes without saying that it is unrealistic for most people to be able to push the bike like that and run sub 3:30 on 1 or 2 years of training. But hey, what are goals for anyway?
And then my other buddy in his 2nd triathlon in his life and first Ironman ever goes 1:12/5:03/3:51. Not too shabby eh?
It makes me determined as hell to show them up in my first IM next year.
I think the mental factor is huge. I recently moved from an older road bike to a new softride rocket TT and here are the factors that affect me:
You just want to ride the “pretty” bike more because it deserves it. Both because it looks good and you have to get your money’s worth right?
Mentally feeling faster during training. When you look good, and you know it, you tend to have a more positive attitude, even during mile 94 of a century. If someone drives by you and you see their head turn there is always an instant surge of confidence and speed.
In racing, anything you can do to instill your own confidence while shaking your competitor’s is good. Not as important in Tri, but still a factor.
The embarassment factor - there is nothing so powerful of a motivator as imagining yourself at your next race on your brand new trick bike at mile 24 and getting passed by a grandma on a mountainbike. Nothing against grandmas, and nothing against mountainbikes, and not that it would really happen. But just the fear of having a Zipp Disc wheel and getting passed by the guy with the non-aero 32 spokes is enough to make you train and race that much harder. You have to earn your keep. …You get the idea.
hey Steve…aerobars are almost done?? Sweet man, they’ve been a long time coming…got any sneak peek preview pics for us? You almost never post on here…good to see you back.