Rant on illegal immigration

Interesting take on the illegal immigration problem, following the NM governor’s declaration of a state of emergency last week (from a story on NPR): Why is there such a big illegal immigration problem and why hasn’t anything been done about it, especially since 9/11?

Liberals in the federal government have no interest in fixing the problem, because more illegals = more people on the federal nipple. Welfare and Medicare handouts, etc. Free money means more votes means the liberals retain their power in Washington. Conservatives have no interest in fixing the problem, since more illegal immigrants translates to more cheap labor, which helps keep corporations in business. Better business = more donations, which means more votes which means the conservatives retain their power in Washington.

So in this simplistic view, it appears that at the federal level, neither Republicans nor Democrats have a genuine interest in stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into this country. Forget principles, it’s all about staying in power. But isn’t that all of politics?

Then there are the recent poll results from Mexico that found about 40% of the Mexican population would like to come to the US to work. Something like 70 MILLION people would be willing to immigrate to the US, even if illegally, to find work. They interviewed a number of students at some of Mexico’s most prestigious universities, who said there were no jobs in Mexico to fit with their education. So, they would be willing to enter the US illegally and find whatever employment they could just to be here and possibly get a better job some time later.

I guess that says a lot about the country of Mexico, the Mexican government, and their economy.

Is this really scary to anyone else, or is it just me?

I don’t know why you would think liberals favor illegal immigration as a way of increasing government liability. That’s just silly. Not to mention your vote argument doesn’t exactly hold water because last I checked, illegal immigrants can’t legally vote. In fact, legal immigrants cannot legally vote either. So I don’t exactly understand your argument.

My view is that liberals are not for illegal immigration, but they are for humane treatment of illegal immigrants once they are in this country. In addition to the humanitarian argument that people within these borders should not be made to suffer simply because they are looking to work, which last I checked is considered a fairly noble cause, the practical matter is that having an unknown population within our borders which has no ability to work and no access to any basic services is how you develop some nasty social pathologies like gang violence, crime, disease, and other things that are not in our best interest to let fester. So the practical solution, given that wholesale hunting down and repatriation (especially given the business interests that rely upon them) is simply not practical, is to work out some sort of humane and economic solution, rather than rhetoric.

As for Mexico, if you want to understand the situation there, or the rest of Central and South America, it’s not all that complicated. Take a look at the Google Earth mapping software, and zoom in on Rio de Janeiro, or Sao Paulo, and see if you can identify the favelas (slums), and the wealthy areas. In Sao Paulo just look at the sheer density and sprawl of the world’s second largest city. We can spew rhetoric here about democratization in South America yadda yadda yadda, but the fact of the matter is our interest here is primarily in creating trade partners and markets for our goods. But the problem is that most of these countries are still suffering from a post-colonial hangover, which has resulted in some of the most lopsided wealth distributions in the world. So you have in Rio, for instance, 30% of the population which lives in incredibly violent shantytowns, and then a small percentage who own most of the wealth, which lives in armed compounds. Sao Paulo has the largest number of private helipads in the world, many of which are used for commuting to work. I think that democracy is a fine idea for these countries, but the fact is that there are a lot of entrenched interests that don’t give a shit about fairness or democracy, and only want to perpetuate the system because it works for them.

Mexico isn’t a lot different. You have an upper class population of mestizo or European descent and then a bunch of poor Indians with little social or economic mobility. Is it any wonder there is such upheaval in Central and South America all the time? I went to grad school in LA, and all my classmates from Mexico and South America were pretty much the whitest people you’d find, which sort of contrasted my impressions of those places as being the home of brown-skinned people. It was an interesting introduction to latin social politics. Even a filipino in my class could trace his descent back to Spain, which I think only 1% of the Phillippines can do.

Anyway, my point is that those places are scary, and as a country I think we pay a lot more lip service to helping them than we actually care about. There’s obviously a limit to what we can do, but I think we don’t play with a full deck in our dealings there because there is simply a very powerful upper class that may see the pie as zero-sum and not have any particular interest in creating a more egalitarian society. And we don’t try and penetrate this problem because we don’t really care that much. And hence the poor, if they have the means and courage, try to venture someplace where they might be opportunity; i.e., the US.

Well said trio.

Republicans see undocumented workers as a commodity to be bought and sold, traded and bartered. Democrats see them as poor people.

Either way they are not going away anytime soon, so brush up on your Spanish and pass the salsa.

Your argument about not being allowed to vote is a little misleading. Legally you are correct but the truth is many places do not require proof of citizenship. THis is the whole argument behind prop 200 in Arizona where it was overwhelmingly passed. It was eventually upheld by the 9th circuit court of appeals as legal. Not all states have this voting provision. If illegal immigrants are allowed to vote they will overwhelmingly vote democrat. Why? Becaue its the democrats portrayed by the media as having their best interest at heart.

You also seem to want want to paint conservatives as being cold and heartless when it comes to illegal immigration. I would beg to differ. The key word in all of this is ILLEGAL. Since when do we reward illegal activities in this country? You can present the argument that they are simply looking for work and that is a noble cause. And it is. But it is a noble cause for legal immigrants to be looking for work too. When we allow illegal persons access to our welfare and public services we are allowing the problem to continue. You will get no argument from me that the president and this congress has done nothing to address the illegal problem. Its one area I truly wish the president would take a firm stance on. I don’t believe the libs have some moral high ground on the issue either.

I don’t dispute you. Some states do not require proof of citizenship to vote, which is problematic. However, I have my doubts as to how many illegal immigrants actually turn up at polls. I can’t imagine it’s a statistically meaningful number. As for those few voting for Democrats, that’s probably true, but I suspect its not the media as much as Democrats seem to show a little more compassion than Republicans.

I don’t paint conservatives as heartless. I think they have a problem in that one segment of the party wants to freeze illegal immigrants out of the system entirely, while another segment simply cannot function without them. Can you imagine the agriculture or meat-packing industries without them? I would be more than happy to pay more for food products if those industries would be more judicious in both hiring and safety standards, but I don’t believe that will happen.

As for illegal immigrants, I don’t think that freezing them out of the social support system either discourages them nor is in our collective best interest. Given what the level of physical risk they go through to seek work here, I don’t think that the social welfare system is what they are looking for to come here. Likewise, freezing them out and making them untouchables breeds a lot of social pathologies that ultimately affect a lot of other people, and just doesn’t make a lot of practical sense. The conservative viewpoint is just to try to freeze them out because they believe that social services encourages them to come. The liberal viewpoint is that they don’t believe it is a meaningful motivator, is not a compassionate response to human suffering, and does not serve the collective interests from a health and crime standpoint. Obviously, I think the liberal stand is ultimately more practical.

But yes, the government simply does not apply resources in this area. I think this is partially a business problem, and partially an inability or unwillingness to devote the huge resources it would take to secure the border. And given that Homeland Security funds are being devoted to pork-barrel security projects for states that have essentially ZERO risk of attack, this is politics at its worst.

But you are correct. If the borders are secure, we are not having this conversation.

Nice writeup (no sarcasm here). IMO, your point wasn’t to defend liberals or bash conservatives as much as it was to provide a small insight into Central American economics and sociology. Interesting.

As for my position on voting: free money/benefits equals votes. This has been a tenant of liberalism for years. Illegals aren’t supposed to be able to vote, but some do. As do family members and friends who already may be here legally & can vote. Then there are the sympathizers who feel that liberals who support social programs for all must be good, whole-hearted people (maybe they are) and are deserving of a vote. So it’s not just about illegals themselves voting.

“In addition to the humanitarian argument that people within these borders should not be made to suffer simply because they are looking to work, which last I checked is considered a fairly noble cause, the practical matter is that having an unknown population within our borders which has no ability to work and no access to any basic services is how you develop some nasty social pathologies like gang violence, crime, disease, and other things that are not in our best interest to let fester.”

I doubt many people would be against humanitarian treatment of others within this country. Not only can this “unknown population within our borders” contribute to unpleasant social pathologies, but it can create strain on communities and local governments.

You stated they have no access to basic services. Not true. What kind of basic services? Hospital treatment, schools? Who pays for emergency room care and hospitalization for those without insurance? Schools can’t ask for proof of a child’s citizenship. Who pays for the extra teachers, meals, & larger classrooms? There was a story on NPR a couple weeks back on this very subject.

If you’re here, you should be here legally and pay taxes just like everyone else.

“So the practical solution, given that wholesale hunting down and repatriation… is simply not practical, is to work out some sort of humane and economic solution”

Do you think this is where Bush’s “guest worker” or amnesty program comes from? But doesn’t this reward (and encourage) illegal behavior?

Yes, Democrats are so kind and noble. Republicans are slave traders.

Ack.

Again, nice writeup.

Liberals in the federal government have no interest in fixing the problem, because more illegals = more people on the federal nipple. Welfare and Medicare handouts, etc. Free money means more votes means the liberals retain their power in Washington.

Liberals are in power in Washington?

44% of Hispanics voted for Bush in 2004, up from 35% in 2000. This increase is despite Democratic efforts to increase the % of hispanic voters voting Democrat, especially in “swing” states like Colorado and New Mexico. So while Kerry won the majority of the Hispanic vote, Democrats have lost the advantage with Hispanic voters over the past years (despite their uhh, efforts, to put all illegals on the so-called federal nipple). Facts from http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/08/politics/hispanic.gif.

If you’re here, you should be here legally and pay taxes just like everyone else.

You are aware that illegal immigrants who work using fake Social Security numbers have taxes withheld, without any possibility of ever receiving benefits in the future? Many in Washington consider this an important revenue stream.

Many in Washington consider this an important revenue stream.

Do you have any figures comparing how much revenue is generated this way, versus how money is spent on illegal aliens?

Many in Washington consider this an important revenue stream.

Do you have any figures comparing how much revenue is generated this way, versus how money is spent on illegal aliens?

A quick search shows an estimated $7 billion in Social Security and Medicare taxes are paid by illegal immigrants per year, done by a group that favors limits on immigration. “Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. “Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file,” said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago.” The “suspense file” (taxes that can’t be traced to a SS record) is about $56 billion per year.

I have no idea how much money is spent on “other-than-legal” immigrants.

So somewhere between 7 and 56 billion? Let’s just call it about 30 billion, why not? What percentage of SS annual revenue is that?

As for the costs, I’ve seen reports that California alone is drained of $10 billion per year by illegal immigration.

I have no idea how much money is spent on “other-than-legal” immigrants.

“other-than-legal” immigrants ???

Would that be the same or different than illegal aliens?

Hint: an immigrant is someone who is here legally, under the jurisdiction of the laws of this country, with some form of legal immigration status. If a person does not have this legal immigration status, then that person is not an immigrant. They may be an resident alien, or some other legally present person, or they may be a criminal that entered the country against the laws of this country.

WTF is an “other than legal” immigrant?

I have no idea how much money is spent on “other-than-legal” immigrants.

“other-than-legal” immigrants ???

Would that be the same or different than illegal aliens?

Hint: an immigrant is someone who is here legally, under the jurisdiction of the laws of this country, with some form of legal immigration status. If a person does not have this legal immigration status, then that person is not an immigrant. They may be an resident alien, or some other legally present person, or they may be a criminal that entered the country against the laws of this country.

WTF is an “other than legal” immigrant?

Back off, Jack:

“Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes,” said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary, using the agency’s term for illegal immigration.

So somewhere between 7 and 56 billion? Let’s just call it about 30 billion, why not? What percentage of SS annual revenue is that?

As for the costs, I’ve seen reports that California alone is drained of $10 billion per year by illegal immigration.
Not a clue, but it’s a small percentage.

Social Security’s chief actuary, using the agency’s term for illegal immigration.

So it’s the criminal thing, then. Thanks for clearing that up.

It’s still a stupid-a$$ PC term…it just isn’t yours. ;-> Sorry for assuming it was.

It’s even worse than “undocumented immigrant”, which seems to be the currently popular stupid-a$$ PC term for illegal alien.

A quick search pulled this article with some pretty staggering numbers of the costs we pay because of the illegals and 56 billion doesn’t come close to being worth it. http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm . This is my favorite, the anchor baby. We need to change this law now so they can’t do this. The anchor baby loophole is unbelievable

"Over 300,000 women annually arrive pregnant and drop them on U.S. soil. You pay food, housing, medical and schooling for them to age 18 PLUS their mother. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, average annual cost per child K-12 is $7,161.00 and exceeds $109 billion annually per cycle of anchor babies. That’s your money given out to 300,000 moms and their kids annually and all they did was get pregnant and birth that child on U.S. soil. "

You forget the benefits…like the cheap produce you eat, the cheap meat you eat, the cheap home you live in, the cheap hamburger you get at the drive thru.

Undocumented workers are everywhere in this country and are doing jobs for levels of pay that Americans would find unacceptable. Undocumented workers mean we don’t have to pay $5 for a head of lettuce or a tomato.

The impact on our economy if we shipped them all back to Tijuana tomorrow would be staggering. Every farm, meat packing plant, produce processing plant, much of our construction, and most restaurants and hotels would close over night.

And who would mow your lawn when you’re out on your 6 hour weekend bike rides?

Matt, you being a fellow Californian should know how bad this sucks. I’m not sure how much you see it up there but here in the central valley I can tell you that the legal and illegals Mexican immigrants are straining the schools, hospitals and legal system. Any benefit you get from cheap lettuce is going to offset by being taxed out of existence. I’m not trying to be racist here in any way but the cost of taking care of poor people in all facets of their life is staggering.