Rage Against The Machine

Triathlon Forum
1

Why can’t bike manufacturers make a decent bike under $600 bucks with, Titanium, or Carbon, or ? Not just a frame, I’m talking about the whole bike?

It defies belief how mass manufacturing has just avoided “road bikes” to make them cheaper than $2500 bucks.

Go open up the back of your TV set or stereo, just rip it off the back, and take a gander at the massive, complicated technology in the back of that product, and consider, that probably only cost $300 to $400 bucks. If you threw a rock into the back of it, or threw water on it, you couldn’t fix it, you’d have no freaking idea, what electrode or blue piece or pin, would have to be fixed. You’d just give up.

Now, throw a rock or screw up an expensive road bike, which costs $5000 bucks, odds are, you can pretty much figure out, “it’s that metal piece down there, which is rattling?” Despite all the aerodymanic testings, all the “complicated gearing and wiring, or composite frames, and leather seats, or lightweight wheel sets” a road bike or its parts, are essentially a primitive set of primitive moving parts, welding and cutting out big metal pieces, or sprockets, compared to other consumer products with a greater deal of technology and components. Yet, “road bikes,” are priced, many of the “good ones,” $2500 plus. Yes, they are highly engineered and tested, but come on, compared to consumer electronics?

Go have a conversation with someone who is not involved in cycling or triathlons, about buying a $2500 bike. They’d think you were insane.

It just seems to me that there is a lot of “fat” going somewhere, when we buy a $2500 plus bike.

I’m bitching about this because I’m fixing to plop it down on a new bike, and this is about all I can, scream a little bit.

But mark my words, one day, somebody, some manfacturer, should be able to make a full carbon bike with Dura Ace, and all the bells and whistles for $600 bucks. They should.

2

I’ll make you a deal. I’ll produce a $400 road bike, Carbon or Titatium frame, Dura Ace or Record components, your choice of wheels. I’ll throw in your choice of pedals and shoes.

All you have to do is to ensure that 100 million units will be sold worldwide next year.

Ray

3

I know the feeling, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Sony sells more TV’s to American consumers than Trek sells bikes. Obesity is at “epidemic” levels here but I can buy a DVD player for less than thirty bucks. Don’t forget the “Dollar Value Meal” at the fast food chain. No pun intended, but the market for TV’s and such is larger than for high-end bikes, thus the lower cost.

Brett

4

If you know your market and have patience there is a solution to the high cost of bicycles - purchase second hand. My wife’s full Dura Ace equipped titanium road bike costs new almost $4000. She purchased hers second hand, one year old, perfect condition for $1500.

For the $600. bucks you mentioned you can buy lots of excellent older campy record/dura ace high end steel classics or newer Giant OCR’s, etc.

It’s the cost of materials, etc. and relatively low volume numbers that make bikes as expensive as they are.

5

Where is Gerard?

We can start this thing right now.

R2.5 Cervelo Solist with Dura Ace, fully equipped, Velomax wheels, for $500 bucks.

They can do a test run on all of us, today, see if we can get your numbers, if not, well, it just didn’t work, and those who bought one for $500 bucks, will just have to be a group, which wasn’t included in your millions. I’ll be the guineau pig.

6

saw an ad last night on TV. Phillips 3 disc dvd player to hook to your TV $30 bucks. My friends went a 8am and they were sold out, 300 units at that one store. I’m still dvd less, damn.

7

I got a Mustek V520 for $60 and I can read DVD from all zones.

9

“I have a Giant OCR2… About 600 bucks and a lot of bike.”

My wife rode an OCR3 in her first two seasons of sprint tri and had several AG golds. It’s not about the bike, but set yours up just like I’ve been telling you.

10

purchase second hand

I bought my tri bike used (on Ebay, but the guy was local). $650 with C2’s and full Ultegra. Good as new.

I have won just as many races on that bike as I would have on a slick new P3. Zero.

11

What I’m complaining about should be the complaint of everyone who doesn’t get a “free bike” because they are a professional and are tired of shelling out ridiculous amounts for a decent road or tri bike, or parts. These new bikes or good used bikes should not be $2000 or more.

If the test was, what should I ride, it’d probably be a Raleigh R-600 or something relative to the big dogs. Us losers, just want a good dependable bike, which might last four or five years. Thats’ what we want. And we don’t want to pay $2500 for it.

Bottom line. No reason in the world, why a “Trek 5200” can’t be made for $600 dollars or less. None.

A lot of this is status. Name brand status. We pay for status. Just like cars. I wouldn’t ride a Colnago C-40 if I could ride a Specialized M5 S-Works. But heads would turn if they see a Colnago or a Pinerello. Or maybe a Look carbon frame. A lot of buying just goes into making heads turn. Let’s just be honest about that. Or I guess we could lie and keep up this sad, insane exploitative machine, for what basically is a more geometrically designed, aerodynamic bike, but the same machinery and fundamental engineering, we’ve had for a bicycle since 1909. It’s just a chain, a few sprockets, gears and metal, and a seat. Times ain’t changed too much since the 20th century on bikes. We can put them in wind tunnels, and reduce the weight to 11 pounds, or 2 pounds, but it’s just big parts and sprockets.

Sick of it.

12

Booth, you curiously overlooked the first couple of replies to this thread. There IS a MAJOR reason why you’ll never get your $600 Trek 5200. Its basic economics. . .economies of scale, profit margins and such. Sony will probably sell a couple of million TVs next year. How many Trek 5200s do you think are going to be sold next year? If you take the Wal-Mart junk out of the equation, you could line up every major manufacturer and still not get that many bikes sold. Even if Trek could produce a million 5200 frames, Shimano couldn’t produce that many groups to hang on them. I don’t have any idea how many OCLV frames Trek produces per year, but they certainly need a much larger profit margin than a consumer electronics biz.
While there is a modicum of truth in the name brand status, there are still basic economics at work. How many C50s are going to be made this year? How many S-Works? If I make fewer items, I need more margin to make it worth my time to produce them.
And while the basic mechanics of a bicycle haven’t really changed, the mechanics of producing today’s machines hardly compares to that of 1909.
If you really want a $600 high-end bike, you’ll have to revolutionize a whole hell of a lot more than just the bike biz. Anytime you feel ready to take on then entire world economy, be my guest. I’ll gladly sit by and watch you flail against reality while I save my pennies for yet another $5000 bike. Betcha a $600 I have my bike eons before you would.

13

"you’ll have to revolutionize "

In China more bikes are sold annually than cars. That’s one advantage of communism.

14

Dude, get over it. There are plenty of decent bikes to get under $1000 that will be reliable for years and be almost as fast as the $5000 bikes. TREK, Janus , Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, QR… they all produce them. You want the Name Brand status yourself otherwise you woulndn’t be complaining.

15

Here’s a deal for you. QR will sell you a Kilo and a wetsuit for $1000. What are you complaining about?

16

boothrand,

I feel your pain. But this is reality.

Here’s a question: has competition driven prices up instead of down?
Let me hypothesise out loud for a minute here.

In order to get market share, the next new trinket (component /
feature) comes out, a value-added item that lets the vendor justify
jacking up the price and continue to successfully sell the product.
The competitor responds in kind, in a kind of increasing-price/feature
war. Note: the market (at least, a large enough share of it) drives
this by accepting the offer at the higher price.

Eventually the low-end bike vendors look at this and decide that if
people are shelling out that kind of money for those features – which
appear to be just a few incremental improvements (no change in basic
functionality) – then the market can bear a higher price for their
own products. So even the entry-level road bikes are 5 times what they
cost 20 years ago, but only 1.2 times as good (and maybe the value of
a dollar has changed by 2 times in that time… not enough to justify
it).

Actually, calling it 1.2 times as good may be stretching it. Back in
the day, when you bought a decent bike, it weighed quite a bit but you
knew the parts would last forever if you maintained them. Isn’t the
problem with low-end bikes today that the components are not durable,
etc? You can’t afford to buy low-end today, because you keep on
paying.

Those who have a lot of money can drop it on a bike. This keeps the
companies in business, and that’s great for them. And as features
increase, price will increase. Getting that last 2% can cost 20% more.
Some want that, and that’s fine.

But it would be nice to be able to buy affordably a solid bike that
would last a few years. Second-hand is the only option for some of us.

So I see two things a work here. Economics of scale, sure. But I think
there is some elite-buyer-acceptance driving the increase in perceived
value of lower-end bikes, too.

In the end, the market decides the price. If you go ahead and buy at
$2500, you’ll be contributing to that effect. And I wouldn’t fault you
for doing so: you have the freedom. But realise that for all the
protesting, you will in effect be saying that the machine really is
worth $2500.

I would love to see mass-market acceptance/purchase of road bikes, but
I don’t think it will happen any time soon.

Two comments:

  1. This post is not a slam against high-end bike manufacturing. I’m
    glad Gerard and others can make a living at it. I doubt I’ll ever ride
    one, for money reasons, but that shouldn’t stop others from doing so
    if they want to.

  2. Maybe my mind is slightly damaged by working with computers, where
    every couple of years the performance doubles and is available for the
    same number of dollars!

17

My gripe with the bike industry is that parts for the most expensive bikes, made of unobtanium, require constant replacement. I have an 11 year old $300 Mongoose mountain bike that has only ever seen new chains and a rear deraillleur, and that was thanks to a stick, not wear. My Giant NRS 2($1500), 2 years old, requires constant replacement of chainrings, cassettes, chains, tires, brake rotors, etc. I’ve replaced over $500 in parts in 2 years on a bike I ride once a week.

For my money, I would be happy with a 20 pound steel tri bike with a steel drivetrain that would never require replacement. I have a steel road bike, but ALL of the drivetrain components are aluminum. How stupid is that?

18

have to agree here. the year old used price may be a more accurate indicator of worth, rather than the inflated retail market price. i like to buy used because i can get something closer to what it is worth to me rather than the worth the manuf. or retailer must place on the item due to the market/operating costs.

19

<<In China more bikes are sold annually than cars. That’s one advantage of communism. >>

Yes, workers not being able to afford cars is one advantage of communism. So is Hong Kong Harbor being one of the most poluted waterways in the world. What pay rate does the Canadian government set for chiropractors? For all of your schooling, do you make more or less than a janitor? The former Soviet Union was quite famous for their underground, black market economy. Funny how human nature and capitalism are so closly aligned…

Brett

20

“workers not being able to afford cars is one advantage of communism”

I know, I know. My comment was supposed to be a joke. You don’t have to call me comrade. But imagine the pollution and strain on the world oil supply if every Chinese worker did own a car.

21

<<I know, I know. My comment was supposed to be a joke.>>

Argh, that darned internet.

<<You don’t have to call me comrade. But imagine the pollution and strain on the world oil supply if every Chinese worker did own a car. >>

Agreed. In my dream world, all places of work would have locker-room/shower facilities (not mandated by the government, but by their own volution) so that employees can bike to work and still wear dress clothes. In my near perfect dream world, chiropractors would be artisans of preventative health versus repair technicians ex post facto. Maybe one day…

Brett