Is there significant lateral stength gained by going to a cross pattern? Radial looks so cool, but I’m trying to make a stiff wheelset.
radial is stiffer. You need some kind of cross on the rear wheel, drive side, to resist windup.
xen355,
I think the “stiffest” wheels are the low spoke count high spoke tension wheels.
Next up would be radial laced wheels. The force vectors are all through the axle and along all the spokes. There is really no “give” in this lacing pattern. A side note is that straight laced wheels are nowhere the most durable wheels. They have the most difficulty managing lateral forces of any spoke lacing pattern.
2x laced wheels would come next and finally 3x laced wheels would be the most “forgiving” and most durable. In part because the force vectors run near but not through the axle and this is the furthest departure from a straight lacing pattern, there is the most “give” in this 3x lacing pattern.
A 3x lacing pattern with 14 gauge straight (not double butted) spokes with Chorus or Dura Ace hubs and Mavic Open Pro rims is often referred to as a “bomb proof” wheel set. They are some of the most durable, easy to maintain (limited maintenance required) and ride without harshness wheels that you could find or build. If you interpret “strongest” here you are not in error. Many on this forum use these wheels for everyday training wheels and many use them as their primary wheels.
You will almost never see a straight lacing pattern on the drive side of a rear wheel. This lacing pattern just cannot handle the forces the drivetrain places on the rear wheel. Occasionally you can find straight lacing on the non drive side of a rear wheel and then usually 2x lacing on the drive side.
I hope this answers your question and helps.
Hardly. Wheel stiffness depends upon the stiffness of the spokes (a materials property), so varies very little with lacing pattern. See: http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ra-e.html#radial
I think the “stiffest” wheels are the low spoke count high spoke tension wheels.
Wheel stiffness does not depend on spoke tension.
Quote: “Wheel stiffness does not depend on spoke tension.”
duncan,
I realize you mean well and I am not trying to be a smart ass but…
reduce the spoke tension on your wheels by two turns of the spoke wrench on each spoke and advise me how stiff your wheels are now.
Spoke tension is a determinate in this equation.
reduce the spoke tension on your wheels by two turns of the spoke wrench on each spoke and advise me how stiff your wheels are now.
If the spokes are now loose (i.e. not taught), then yes, the wheel will be less stiff. However, if the spokes are taught then the siffness of the wheel is unaffected. (However, the wheel might not last long before going out of true.) Once a spoke is taught, applying more tension does not make the wheel stiffer.
ps - I’m off soon so won’t be able to carry on this discussion today…
The lower the cross pattern, the higher the lateral strength. But it’s not a huge difference.
OK, here’s the plan. Critique as necessary:
American classic micro58 28 hole black radially laced to a Velocity aerohead with Sapim CX-Ray’s
American classic Road 205 32 hole black 3X drive, radial non-drive side to Aerohead OC with CX-Ray’s
Ceramic bearing upgrade would add major cool factor, but is it worth $300?
Radial lacing can produce a laterally stiffer wheel -if- you lace in a ‘heads in’ pattern. This will increase the effective width of a the hub a bit and make the wheel marginally stiffer. You’re not likely to notice any difference at all on the bike, though.
Spoke tension, once high enough to hold the wheel together, has very little impact on wheel stiffness. Higher tension should make the wheel more resistant to impacts, but will do nothing to increase the lateral stiffness of the wheel. Some emperical data:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
If you want a stiffer wheel, build with the appropriate number/diameter of spokes to support your weight and riding style. Lace them to a solid set of hubs and rims. The lacing pattern and spoke tension will have a negligable impact on stiffness compared to spoke count, spoke diameter, rim stiffness and hub/axle stiffness.
Edit: If you want a stiff wheel, I’d shy away from that American Classic front hub. Go with something with a bigger diameter axle and larger hub flanges. The rims and spokes look good, assuming you’re not a heavy rider. Going with a Deep V rim would make a stiffer build, as it would shorten the spoke length and provide more stiffness itself, but it would add more than 100g a wheel to the weight.
Ksyrium SSC rear wheel is laced radial on the drive side, I don’t know why though. They try to explain it on their web site but it doesn’t make much sense to me.
The rational for lacing radial on the non-drive side is because the spokes are tighter (they are pretty loose on that side) and when the hub is driven, the spokes will tighen even more. On a 3X wheel, the push spokes loosen up for a moment giving the chance for the spoke nipples to turn (in theory).
jaretj
reduce the spoke tension on your wheels by two turns of the spoke wrench on each spoke and advise me how stiff your wheels are now.
If the spokes are now loose (i.e. not taught), then yes, the wheel will be less stiff. However, if the spokes are taught then the siffness of the wheel is unaffected. (However, the wheel might not last long before going out of true.) Once a spoke is taught, applying more tension does not make the wheel stiffer.
ps - I’m off soon so won’t be able to carry on this discussion today…
Who taut you about spoke taughtening?
Go away, or I will taunt you again, you English kinnigget.
Doh!
Further to the lack of effect of spoke tension on stiffness, the reason is as follows. Spokes must work in the elastic regime, and hence obey Young’s law: modulus E = stress/strain. Equivalently, force F = kx (spring constant k, extension x). A deflection in the wheel corresponds to a change in elastic strain or extension (i.e. delta x) in the spokes. (Change in elastic strain is used because tensioning the spokes applies an initial strain, which is then increased further when the wheel is deflected.) Now
delta x = delta F/k
Thus the stiffer the spokes (i.e. the greater the spring constant k), the smaller delta x, the extension of the spokes, for a given applied force delta F, and the stiffer the wheel. The actual spoke tension does not change k, the stiffness of the spoke, and hence does not change the wheel stiffness. Increasing the tension only increases the initial strain on the spoke, moving it up it’s elastic range. Increase the tension too much and there is a chance the spoke is pushed into plastic behaviour. Decrease too much and the spoke will loose tension when it is at the bottom of the wheel under compressive stress.
The only way to make a stiff, radially laced wheelset is deep-section rims (>30mm) and large-flanged hubs. Also, the orientation of the hub flange is key. The narrow-flange hubs add spoke length, which makes the wheel flexier. Why do you think Ritchey came up with the asymmetrical rear rim? Not only does the non-drive side of the hub get the same length of spokes as the drive side, but the spokes are in general shorter.
God intended training wheels to be box-section, 3X laced with 14 ga. spokes. I have popped many a radially-laced spoke, but have not popped a 3X spoke in forever (unless the wheel builder did not know how to relieve the spokes, which was me at one time). 3X laced spoked wheels are probably the very most popular wheels in the pro peloton for non-timed races for that simple reason: they are durable.
I’ve decided to go with a 3x on both non-drive side and drive side. This way, all the spokes, even for the front wheel, are of the same length. This saves me from buying an extra 20 spokes at $3.75 a piece. Front wheels have an easy life anyway.
I’ve decided to go with a 3x on both non-drive side and drive side. This way, all the spokes, even for the front wheel, are of the same length. This saves me from buying an extra 20 spokes at $3.75 a piece. Front wheels have an easy life anyway.
You might want to recheck that the spokes are the same length on both sides of the rear wheel…
It works. It also worked last time I did a build with the same hubs. Pretty cool huh!
Damn! I thought this was going to be a thread about some new Mexican beer.
Hello Jaret,
I’m the Shawn that did the good friday ride with you. As I understand the spokes are radial on the drive side of Ksyriums because of clearance issues with the cogset (all mumbo jumbo on their website aside).
Styrrell