So I’m back to thinking of getting an aluminum bike and getting nice racing wheels vs. getting the Felt B12 carbon with stock wheels.
All I need is someone to explain with numbers how much faster one is over the other. Considering the cost would be about the same after I get wheels.
I’m looking for someone to say with 404’s or 808’s you would be able to save 3 mins on a 25 mile ride. Or with 404’s you can go 1mph fast which saves you such and such time over 25 miles.
Let me know if there are any super smart people out there that can solve this question once and for all.
I’d encourage you to do a little bit of web research, or even just a ST thread search. There are lots of wind tunnel studies and comparos (each with its own testing protocol). Here is a link to one of the more recent ones: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html. It includes drag and stiffness tables and graphs for about 50 different wheels, including the usual suspects such as the HED 3, Zipp 404 and 808, Xentis Mk. 1, and so on.
Of course that test is nearly useless since it evaluates the wheels only at 0 degrees yaw
good reference for choosing indoor velodrome wheels though perhaps
I’d encourage you to do a little bit of web research, or even just a ST thread search. There are lots of wind tunnel studies and comparos (each with its own testing protocol). Here is a link to one of the more recent ones: http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html. It includes drag and stiffness tables and graphs for about 50 different wheels, including the usual suspects such as the HED 3, Zipp 404 and 808, Xentis Mk. 1, and so on.
According to Hed’s website, the difference between their 40mm Jet and 60-90mm wheels is about 30-80 grams, depending on the yaw and your exact selection.
I think you should be considering a disc, if you’re going to get wheels; it is just plain faster to ride a disc. And the difference between a disc rear/60-90mm front, and the 40mm wheels is more in the 100 gram range.
According to Cervelo the difference between a Felt DA frame, and some of the lesser designed TT frames is as high as 100 grams of drag.
Felt is of the contention that the way Cervelo did the testing was not in their favor, which I can neither verify or dispute. Tom Anhalt’s testing with his P2k vs. a Cervelo P3c seems to verify that frame differences can be very big.
Here is the problem, building in aluminum leaves obstacles in a few areas that seem to be very important; airfoil shaped headtube, bladed seatstays, consistent width wheel cutout, even well done internal cable routing.
Trek’s aluminum offering addresses most of these concerns very well; but it costs $2000. You could get a QR seduza for that price, and though the seduza isn’t a great bike aerodynamically speaking, it isn’t terrible either.
I wouldn’t discount the effects of an aero frame. People have a concept of wheels being a big advantage, because when aerodynamic testing of wheels was first done, they would compare everything to a box section 32 spoke wheel. However, most peoples eevryday wheels are now 25-35mm deep, with 18-28 spokes, and those wheels are not nearly as slow as the olden days training wheels.
The Felt comes with 40mm wheels that are quick. Add a Renn disc to the mix, and thats a beastly fast setup.
There are too many variables to give you an answer to your question - but I’d guess 1/4-1/2 mph on average? In low wind - 0 mph.
My advice: buy the best frame that you can/want. You can upgrade components/wheels…as you go. I think any decent frame is fine but if you’re like me - you’ll always be thinking of buying a “better” frame and eventually you will…
I have 2 sets of race wheels - Hed Alps clinchers and Zipp tubular 909’s. I have been underwhelmed in how much “faster” they are vs. training wheels. I’ve done some testing with a PM yet usually in low yaw conditions where most wheels are very similar. In races - its always hard to tell - but they don’t seem that much faster. Also - you can always rent race wheels for a big race.
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I’m looking for someone to say with 404’s or 808’s you would be able to save 3 mins on a 25 mile ride. Or with 404’s you can go 1mph fast which saves you such and such time over 25 miles. …
The data is for last years wheels and does not represent the savings of the 2009 404s and 808s which were updated.
There are some fast aluminum frames out there (such as a p3sl).
Given you dilemma, I would recommend getting the fastest frame that fits and an aero helmet. I’ve done a bunch of testing on a flat 1.5 mile loop and have consistently found the aero helmet to be almost as much of a benefit as wheels. Also, you will gain more by improving your position on the bike if you are coming from something very unagressive.
Too many factors regarding time/mph savings depending on which wheels you are coming from, tires you use, types of tubes, frame, your position, but I would put the number on a flat, relatively windless course to be somewhere between 0 and 1 mph.
