Race swim limiters

Triathlon Forum
1

I went in to my race Sunday to try and catch some feet to see if I could improve my swim times. But as I was thinking about the swim portion of the race today, just some thoughts.

As usual, it was groups of ages, the oldest last, for the swim start. 3 minutes between the 3 waves. So being an old guy, I get to start in the last wave of the Olympic.
The race also had wave starts for the sprint starting like 9 minutes after these waves.

So we start for the first half directly into the sun for the first half of the swim, so seeing anything going forward is just about impossible. So I spend the first half of the race swimming in the sun and quickly start catching tons of folks from the first two waves who cannot swim well. Since it was impossible to see, I spent tons of times
with my head up just trying to see what was in front of me to not swim into folks, or swim into the boats on the course.

Once I started heading back, I then swam into the sprint folks who only did half the course.

So it hit me today, that the race for the first wave youngest folks is SO much easier than the last wave folks like myself. They get basically totally clean water to just swim hard and in a rhythm. But folks like myself who have to spend basically the entire race trying to swim around people are just having a totally different race experience.
Kinda a drag since at the end of the day, the rankings are determined by finish time. Sure would love to be able to swim in the first wave and get clean water for once.

So never had a chance to catch feet since I spent the whole time trying not to swim over folks.

2

I did the same race, well the sprint (first tri ever). I was likely one of the swimmers in your way since it took me far too long to get through that leg.

Apparently, if you suck at swimming you have to deal with an insane amount of bike traffic before you can really start moving. I didn’t really have a clear path until part way up Iron Point and even then had to bob and weave around a few folks on Prairie City. Missed out on having the fastest bike leg to a teammate as a result!

So, not only do the younger folks get a cleaner swim, it seems they’d get a much cleaner ride in as well. That’s probably not news to most, but definitely a motivator learning to swim better for me.

3

You cant just hope to swim feet and have them magically appear, you have to make it happen. Saint George 70.3 M30-34 was close to last and we immediately started swimming through the slower waves. You just deal with it. I held the same feet 90% of the race anyway. Sometimes fast AGs are first other times slow ones are. Having specific OWS skills makes life easier.

At IMSR my second lap was 2 min slower than my first from passing through huge groups. Definitely slower but not enough to ruin my race… I also held feet for 90% of that race.

You should work on your open water skills because it sounds like that is your race swim limiter.

4

I did the same race, well the sprint (first tri ever). I was likely one of the swimmers in your way since it took me far too long to get through that leg.

Apparently, if you suck at swimming you have to deal with an insane amount of bike traffic before you can really start moving. I didn’t really have a clear path until part way up Iron Point and even then had to bob and weave around a few folks on Prairie City. Missed out on having the fastest bike leg to a teammate as a result!

So, not only do the younger folks get a cleaner swim, it seems they’d get a much cleaner ride in as well. That’s probably not news to most, but definitely a motivator learning to swim better for me.

Congrads on your race.

I found a long time ago, that as my swim times improved, so did my overall race. As you comment, if you get to the bikes sooner, you have less traffic to deal with on the road. And for our race Sunday, my wife told me it was a total zoo when the middle of the pack swimmers all exited T1 on their bikes. Trying to get started going up a hill, and on a very narrow foot path, for a long way until we hit the main road, must have been very frustrating to you. Luckily I was able to swim enough in front of the Olympic and most of the sprint folks I did not have any bike issues out of T1.

I also found the better swimmer I became, the faster overall I became because I was not totally drained after the swim. So even though the posts about why folks cannot find the time to do more swim training are all fair comments, as you see, one really is giving up a key part of the race, and how it impacts the total outcome.

5

Pacific Coast Tri used to have an Elite wave, the first wave, consisting of last year’s podium finishers, should they choose to go in that wave rather than their AG wave. I was a point chasing demon back then (I don’t care about points now), but I didn’t race this one the prior year. So, being a better than most swimmer, and in one of the later waves, I had a tremendous number of racers to weave my way through, accidentally swimming over a few here and there. Nevertheless, I was first in my cap color out of the water and proceeded to hold my place on the bike as you had your age on your calf and nobody as old or older passed me on either the bike or run. BTW: Both of these were much like the swim with crowds of racers to weave through. Yes, shock of all shocks, cyclists don’t always stay to the right (sigh). Anyway, I had a great race and was sure I placed. I did… placed 4th. 1-3 were in the elite wave - clean water, at least one clear bike lap, of two and an open run course. How is that fair? USAT decided it wasn’t and dropped the elite wave the next year. I got 2nd then next year.

Not sure there is any solution to this except maybe mass start :slight_smile:

6

Pacific Coast Tri used to have an Elite wave, the first wave, consisting of last year’s podium finishers, should they choose to go in that wave rather than their AG wave. I was a point chasing demon back then (I don’t care about points now), but I didn’t race this one the prior year. So, being a better than most swimmer, and in one of the later waves, I had a tremendous number of racers to weave my way through, accidentally swimming over a few here and there. Nevertheless, I was first in my cap color out of the water and proceeded to hold my place on the bike as you had your age on your calf and nobody as old or older passed me on either the bike or run. BTW: Both of these were much like the swim with crowds of racers to weave through. Yes, shock of all shocks, cyclists don’t always stay to the right (sigh). Anyway, I had a great race and was sure I placed. I did… placed 4th. 1-3 were in the elite wave - clean water, at least one clear bike lap, of two and an open run course. How is that fair? USAT decided it wasn’t and dropped the elite wave the next year. I got 2nd then next year.

Not sure there is any solution to this except maybe mass start :slight_smile:

Thanks for the post. It had never hit me that I was not racing the same race as the first wave, but my finish time gets ranked with theirs.

I know at USAT nationals, they have the older folks go out in the first waves. I think the reason is more to get them off the course before it gets real hot, but
at least at the Du races, it was nice to have a clean road to run on first. I assume Tri Nationals still does the same thing so the older folks get clean water.

I have no idea for any kind of solution since for AG awards, makes sense everyone has to start the race at the same time so they race the same conditions. Just sucks on rankings where I am compared to folks with better racing conditions.

7

I went in to my race Sunday to try and catch some feet to see if I could improve my swim times. But as I was thinking about the swim portion of the race today, just some thoughts.

As usual, it was groups of ages, the oldest last, for the swim start. 3 minutes between the 3 waves. So being an old guy, I get to start in the last wave of the Olympic.
The race also had wave starts for the sprint starting like 9 minutes after these waves.

So we start for the first half directly into the sun for the first half of the swim, so seeing anything going forward is just about impossible. So I spend the first half of the race swimming in the sun and quickly start catching tons of folks from the first two waves who cannot swim well. Since it was impossible to see, I spent tons of times
with my head up just trying to see what was in front of me to not swim into folks, or swim into the boats on the course.

Let me see if I understand you here. You are swimming directly towards this huge glowing object in the sky, and you feel the need to swim with your head up to figure out where to go?

8

I went in to my race Sunday to try and catch some feet to see if I could improve my swim times. But as I was thinking about the swim portion of the race today, just some thoughts.

As usual, it was groups of ages, the oldest last, for the swim start. 3 minutes between the 3 waves. So being an old guy, I get to start in the last wave of the Olympic.
The race also had wave starts for the sprint starting like 9 minutes after these waves.

So we start for the first half directly into the sun for the first half of the swim, so seeing anything going forward is just about impossible. So I spend the first half of the race swimming in the sun and quickly start catching tons of folks from the first two waves who cannot swim well. Since it was impossible to see, I spent tons of times
with my head up just trying to see what was in front of me to not swim into folks, or swim into the boats on the course.

Let me see if I understand you here. You are swimming directly towards this huge glowing object in the sky, and you feel the need to swim with your head up to figure out where to go?

Nope, not what I said. I said because of swimming into the sun, and into a couple hundred slower swimmers because us older folks start in the last swim wave, I had to try and keep looking since I did not want to run into folks and get kicked in the face. Make sense?

9

Sounds like you’d do better in a self-seeded rolling start. Not sure if any of your local races do that, but maybe you should suggest it.

10

Sounds like you’d do better in a self-seeded rolling start. Not sure if any of your local races do that, but maybe you should suggest it.

Never seen a short course do this.

In normal races I start wide on the right and am okay. It was just when races go straight into the low sun, and it is a large race, wow makes it tough.
Oh well, would much rather race large events, so I guess some of the issues with these one has to deal with.

11

FWIW, I absolutely LOVE swimming through prior waves. As a not-great swimmer myself, it’s a highlight of my day whenever I pass a ‘pod’ from an earlier wave - TOTALLY worth the time lost navigating through them!

12

Hey Dave, unless you were first in the swim in your wave(I doubt it) you probably had some feet to follow, you just didn’t. If you go back and look at the swim splits of everyone in your wave, anyone within 2 minutes ahead of you was a potential pack mule for you. Nice thing with following feet you don’t have to worry about the sun so much, and that person is the one. to navigate around slower swimmers too, so makes your swim a lot less torturous.

And of course everyone going after that first wave had the same problems as you did, so it is not just you that has a different race. And your ranking really does not suffer that much, at least not compared to everyone else in a wave other than the first one. And don’t forget you get to slingshot riders all the way through too, so an advantage the leaders do not get.

And lastly someone has to go in later waves, sometimes it is older, sometimes not. Most races I did moved it around so as to get everyone a crack at different start times. But it just makes sense to start the faster AG’s earlier, less running over even though you had trouble. Imagine the guy that won the swim having to go in the last wave, he would make your swim look like a picnic, probably pass 85% of the other waves, you probably passed just a few dozen people…

Did you at least have a good race, swim should not have affected you there. After all you are the guy that doesn’t really care about others races, just your own, right??

13

Hey Dave, unless you were first in the swim in your wave(I doubt it) you probably had some feet to follow, you just didn’t. If you go back and look at the swim splits of everyone in your wave, anyone within 2 minutes ahead of you was a potential pack mule for you. Nice thing with following feet you don’t have to worry about the sun so much, and that person is the one. to navigate around slower swimmers too, so makes your swim a lot less torturous.

And of course everyone going after that first wave had the same problems as you did, so it is not just you that has a different race. And your ranking really does not suffer that much, at least not compared to everyone else in a wave other than the first one. And don’t forget you get to slingshot riders all the way through too, so an advantage the leaders do not get.

And lastly someone has to go in later waves, sometimes it is older, sometimes not. Most races I did moved it around so as to get everyone a crack at different start times. But it just makes sense to start the faster AG’s earlier, less running over even though you had trouble. Imagine the guy that won the swim having to go in the last wave, he would make your swim look like a picnic, probably pass 85% of the other waves, you probably passed just a few dozen people…

Did you at least have a good race, swim should not have affected you there. After all you are the guy that doesn’t really care about others races, just your own, right??

I got on some feet for a while, but again, for me, with the sun and crowd, I lost them. I will keep trying. It has worked in some races in the past.

Was just an observation. Ranking is by the overall times, not within an AG so it does impact a ranking score. But as you say, it is what it is. Was just an observation on how my race went.

I still have to be careful with my comments, since most in my AG would kill to have my swim, let alone bike, let alone run times. So many comment from their young age, and even then, never have the guts to post their rankings numbers, but sure love to attack. :slight_smile:

I still have a nice strong swim, which is why I practice 3 days a week for an hour, 8 months a year. A “good” swim set’s up the rest of the race. Yep, felt I had a good race overall, a good bike and a killer run. Yep, it is me against the clock. AG stuff at my age is not even worth talking about. When folks ask how I did, I just say okay. I never give my AG finish unless they ask me directly. I then say but there is not really anyone in my AG anymore. :frowning: Care, again, I race for me, my health. Yep, it is fun to chase, compare, etc., but never getting upset about what happens. Most just do not understand this, but everyone who knows me does. I know it will not be long when I can no longer say I got 14th OA last weekend in a very competitive field for our area.

So, are you going to race the Olympic with Dan and hopefully me and maybe Scott Tinley at Tinley’s race at China Peak in Sept? If I am healthy, going to try and drive down. 450 miles for a race is pretty dumb, but want to support Tim in putting on the race.

14

Wow, you amaze me at how much you can stroke away at your own ego in each and every one of your posts for paragraphs upon paragraphs, regardless to how irrelevant it is to the topic at hand. Serious props man. It makes me wish ST had an auto-filter option so I never had to read another one of your posts. But seriously, does anyone know if the forum has this option?

15

I got on some feet for a while, but again, for me, with the sun and crowd, I lost them. I will keep trying. It has worked in some races in the past.

Was just an observation. Ranking is by the overall times, not within an AG so it does impact a ranking score. But as you say, it is what it is. Was just an observation on how my race went.

I still have to be careful with my comments, since most in my AG would kill to have my swim, let alone bike, let alone run times. So many comment from their young age, and even then, never have the guts to post their rankings numbers, but sure love to attack. :slight_smile:

I still have a nice strong swim, which is why I practice 3 days a week for an hour, 8 months a year. A “good” swim set’s up the rest of the race. Yep, felt I had a good race overall, a good bike and a killer run. Yep, it is me against the clock. AG stuff at my age is not even worth talking about. When folks ask how I did, I just say okay. I never give my AG finish unless they ask me directly. I then say but there is not really anyone in my AG anymore. :frowning: Care, again, I race for me, my health. Yep, it is fun to chase, compare, etc., but never getting upset about what happens. Most just do not understand this, but everyone who knows me does. I know it will not be long when I can no longer say I got 14th OA last weekend in a very competitive field for our area.

So, are you going to race the Olympic with Dan and hopefully me and maybe Scott Tinley at Tinley’s race at China Peak in Sept? If I am healthy, going to try and drive down. 450 miles for a race is pretty dumb, but want to support Tim in putting on the race.

I would say that next time follow the bubbles from their kick or swim on their hip to keep sun out of the equation.

16

I went in to my race Sunday to try and catch some feet to see if I could improve my swim times. But as I was thinking about the swim portion of the race today, just some thoughts.

As usual, it was groups of ages, the oldest last, for the swim start. 3 minutes between the 3 waves. So being an old guy, I get to start in the last wave of the Olympic.
The race also had wave starts for the sprint starting like 9 minutes after these waves.

So we start for the first half directly into the sun for the first half of the swim, so seeing anything going forward is just about impossible. So I spend the first half of the race swimming in the sun and quickly start catching tons of folks from the first two waves who cannot swim well. Since it was impossible to see, I spent tons of times
with my head up just trying to see what was in front of me to not swim into folks, or swim into the boats on the course.

Once I started heading back, I then swam into the sprint folks who only did half the course.

So it hit me today, that the race for the first wave youngest folks is SO much easier than the last wave folks like myself. They get basically totally clean water to just swim hard and in a rhythm. But folks like myself who have to spend basically the entire race trying to swim around people are just having a totally different race experience.
Kinda a drag since at the end of the day, the rankings are determined by finish time. Sure would love to be able to swim in the first wave and get clean water for once.

So never had a chance to catch feet since I spent the whole time trying not to swim over folks.

Yeah, open water racing/swimming is an art that requires practice…

Timing swells, sighting (into the sun), following / dropping feet, asserting space, picking a path that gets you around people efficiently.

But it’s the race directors fault if one doesn’t bring these skills. Got it.

17

So, as usual a thread you’re trying to orchestrate as your own personal bragging vehicle that is absolutely brimming with blatant hypocrisy!

You complain you’re having a different race than others and at a disadvantage in the rankings and yet say you’re only racing yourself. You say you’re not comparing and yet your constant theme on ST is how amazed you are at the stupidity of the rest of us, with your justification for this nonsense being your astonishingly superior performance.
Everything you do and say on ST is borne out of a need to compare yourself to others and craving for recognition. If you could resist the urge to include the bragging bullshit and thinly veiled insults you would come across considerably better. As it is, it’s hard to take your comments seriously. All I see is vanity and bitterness.

The wave you start in is just another race condition, like the weather or water currents, that differs from race to race meaning you can never really have exactly comparable times.
Everyone races a different race. If you’re only racing yourself, that shouldn’t matter. Having said that, improvements can be made and modern timing systems allow seeded rolling starts which overcome many of the swim issues. On the other hand those who worry about their rankings (like yourself, despite your apparent occasional denials) often complain that rolling starts mean you can’t have a head to head race with your peers.

It’s rather difficult to please everyone. Unfortunately, since you’re so exceptional, it’s likely most RDs won’t be able to anticipate the problems you’ll face. Oh dear. Races really should be designed especially with you in mind.

18

So, as usual a thread you’re trying to orchestrate as your own personal bragging vehicle that is absolutely brimming with blatant hypocrisy!

You complain you’re having a different race than others and at a disadvantage in the rankings and yet say you’re only racing yourself. You say you’re not comparing and yet your constant theme on ST is how amazed you are at the stupidity of the rest of us, with your justification for this nonsense being your astonishingly superior performance.
Everything you do and say on ST is borne out of a need to compare yourself to others and craving for recognition. If you could resist the urge to include the bragging bullshit and thinly veiled insults you would come across considerably better. As it is, it’s hard to take your comments seriously. All I see is vanity and bitterness.

The wave you start in is just another race condition, like the weather or water currents, that differs from race to race meaning you can never really have exactly comparable times.
Everyone races a different race. If you’re only racing yourself, that shouldn’t matter. Having said that, improvements can be made and modern timing systems allow seeded rolling starts which overcome many of the swim issues. On the other hand those who worry about their rankings (like yourself, despite your apparent occasional denials) often complain that rolling starts mean you can’t have a head to head race with your peers.

It’s rather difficult to please everyone. Unfortunately, since you’re so exceptional, it’s likely most RDs won’t be able to anticipate the problems you’ll face. Oh dear. Races really should be designed especially with you in mind.

Thanks

19

So, as usual a thread you’re trying to orchestrate as your own personal bragging vehicle that is absolutely brimming with blatant hypocrisy!

You complain you’re having a different race than others and at a disadvantage in the rankings and yet say you’re only racing yourself. You say you’re not comparing and yet your constant theme on ST is how amazed you are at the stupidity of the rest of us, with your justification for this nonsense being your astonishingly superior performance.
Everything you do and say on ST is borne out of a need to compare yourself to others and craving for recognition. If you could resist the urge to include the bragging bullshit and thinly veiled insults you would come across considerably better. As it is, it’s hard to take your comments seriously. All I see is vanity and bitterness.

The wave you start in is just another race condition, like the weather or water currents, that differs from race to race meaning you can never really have exactly comparable times.
Everyone races a different race. If you’re only racing yourself, that shouldn’t matter. Having said that, improvements can be made and modern timing systems allow seeded rolling starts which overcome many of the swim issues. On the other hand those who worry about their rankings (like yourself, despite your apparent occasional denials) often complain that rolling starts mean you can’t have a head to head race with your peers.

It’s rather difficult to please everyone. Unfortunately, since you’re so exceptional, it’s likely most RDs won’t be able to anticipate the problems you’ll face. Oh dear. Races really should be designed especially with you in mind.

Thanks
Most welcome

20

I did the same race, well the sprint (first tri ever). I was likely one of the swimmers in your way since it took me far too long to get through that leg.

Apparently, if you suck at swimming you have to deal with an insane amount of bike traffic before you can really start moving. I didn’t really have a clear path until part way up Iron Point and even then had to bob and weave around a few folks on Prairie City. Missed out on having the fastest bike leg to a teammate as a result!

So, not only do the younger folks get a cleaner swim, it seems they’d get a much cleaner ride in as well. That’s probably not news to most, but definitely a motivator learning to swim better for me.

Congratulations on your first race. I hope that you had fun.

As a woman over 40, I almost always have to go in the last swim wave. Not only is there the issue of navigating slower cyclists (although it is very easy to find my bike in T1), there can be a huge time gap between the first and last wave. I have done races with as much as half an hour, and there are significant disadvantages to that. One is that we have to stand around getting cold after warming up because we aren’t allowed to swim in a separate area while the other waves go off. And the other is water conditions. Twice, I have seen storms move in between the first and last wave, so the first wave has nice smooth water while the last one is swimming in chop and rain.

I really prefer self-seeded races. I will seed myself toward the back because I am a slow swimmer, but the time gap between the first person in the water and me is only a couple minutes.