Questions for the suit and tie crowd

The Coffee Shop
1

  1. Shirts, there seems to be point collars spread collars and button downs.
    1a. It seems that button downs are frowned upon? if so why?
    1b. if wearing a spread collar is that for a full windsor while a point collar is a half windsor or does it really matter?
    1c. do different occasions call for spread vs. point?

  2. if the occasion calls for a suit and tie is a full windsor ever inappropriate?

  3. Shirts and ties. Are there any rules anymore? I think it used to be that you would never wear a striped shirt with a striped tie but I see this in stores and catalogs all the time. Can I wear patterned ties with stripe shirts?

Thanks.

2

I am no fashion expert, but, I am surrounded by suit and tie wearing attorneys all day, so, my beliefs are:

1a. Button down shirt are considered to be more casual than non-button down. I do not know why. I think this is a cyclical thing. They are out of style right now, but, may come back.
1b. It does not really matter. What matters more is how it looks given the size of your collar and tie.
1c. I do not think so, but, not certain.

  1. I cannot imagine that a full windsor would be inappropriate.

  2. In the fashion world - no, there are virtually no rules anymore. However, there is a difference b/t business dress and social dress. When I started practicing law, color shirts were frowned upon. You wore a white shirt or possibly a blue one, but that was it. Not anymore. Colors are fine and routinely worn. However, patterns seem to be more social dress and not business dress. Also realize that what is acceptable in NY is different than Dallas, is different than small town Midwest.

3

no brown shoes with grey suit…class less

Collars - personally hate button downs, don’t fly in the city, love windsor or cut-aways - never heard of one being specific to a particular occasion

I wear stripes with patterns, as do many others, I even have a spotted tie that works with a stripe due to its colours
.

4

1a. It seems that button downs are frowned upon? if so why?

Old-fashioned, not “hip”. Honestly, also kind of pointless. The buttons pinch the collar and make it look weird, add an unnecessary step and is just one more button to potentially lose.

1b. if wearing a spread collar is that for a full windsor while a point collar is a half windsor or does it really matter?

Not really.

1c. do different occasions call for spread vs. point?

Not really. The only people that would call you on that are on some fashion show on TLC or something.

2. if the occasion calls for a suit and tie is a full windsor ever inappropriate?

I never do full windsor, I don’t know, it looks like you’re trying to hard in my opinion.

3. Shirts and ties. Are there any rules anymore? I think it used to be that you would never wear a striped shirt with a striped tie but I see this in stores and catalogs all the time. Can I wear patterned ties with stripe shirts?

I have some striped, checked shirts, and solid shirts. Anything can go with a solid shirt. Can obviously also wear a solid tie with either a check or striped shirt. Can also wear a solid colored tie whose fabric has some texture (kind of like a waffle texture) with patterned shirts.

You can potentially wear a striped tie with striped shirt as long as the colors work. I wouldn’t do a striped tie with a checked shirt, checked shirts get solid colored ties in my opinion (or solid ties with texture).

No large patterns on a tie (Christmas trees, tasmanian devils, etc.). Most of my ties are striped, solid or have some small design details (diamond shapes, circles, etc.). But I have a nice triathlete tie my fiance got me, tie is light blue with little swimmers, bikers and runners on it. But the figures are very small and from more than 5 or 10 feet away it just looks like a blue tie with white circles. If they were big figures it would look goofy in a professional setting.

5

Collars have more to do with the size/structure of your face/head than anything else.

Find yourself a good Men’s store (not Syms or Men’s Warehouse) and find a nice (preferbly gay) salesman and let him mix and match shirts and ties for you. I know they always pick out things I’d never pick myself. And I’ve been wearing a suit for 20 years.

6

1a. Button downs are more casual. Wearing them with ties is uncommon almost anywhere but America. Not saying that’s a good or bad thing but some people still equate European/British with stylish and for them, wearing a button down with a tie would be a no no.

1b. Depends of the structure of the tie and how big the knot ends up being. For a full cut-away collar (results in a horizontal line when worn) a full windsor is usual but shirts like that aren’t that common. For half cut-aways (my preference) half-windsor is usually the way to go except for very “full” ties when I might use a four in hand. For pointed collars half windsor or four in hand.

1c. No but I always think cut-away collars look more business like. If there’s a chance you’ll end up with a button undone and your tie loosened (a wedding for example) a pointed collar is more flexible.

  1. No - just depends how it looks.

  2. Apparently not. Mixing stripes and patterns is getting more common but you’ve got be confident you can pull it off. My preference is always to keep it understated with only a faint shirt pattern if any.

7

I forwarded to someone who tells us he’s pretty stylish; his reply:

  1. Shirts, there seems to be point collars spread collars and button downs.
    1a. It seems that button downs are frowned upon? if so why?

Button down aren’t really frowned upon- they’re just out of style right now.

1b. if wearing a spread collar is that for a full windsor while a point collar is a half windsor or does it really matter?

Yes. The wider the spread of the collar- the wider the knot of your tie should be. Ideally- you shouldn’t be able to see either end of the tie.

1c. do different occasions call for spread vs. point?

Nope- it just has to do with personal preference- spread would be better with wider ties and suits. Point is for narrower ties and suits- but it should also be influenced by your own body shape and face shape. If you have a narrow face- a wide spread collar will make you look like you’re wearing your big brother’s suit.

  1. if the occasion calls for a suit and tie is a full windsor ever inappropriate?

No- the knot would be dependant on the tie, the shirt and the suit. The wider ties look better in fulls. Also keep in mind- the side of the lapels on the suit and width of the tie should approximately match. (narrow lapels- narrow tie).

  1. Shirts and ties. Are there any rules anymore? I think it used to be that you would never wear a striped shirt with a striped tie but I see this in stores and catalogs all the time. Can I wear patterned ties with stripe shirts?

Yes- keep it subtle though. Bright red paisley with dark green checks isn’t going to make anyone happy.

I would also say- Charcoal suit with brown shoes and belt- you bet. Go for it.

8

no brown shoes with grey suit…class less

Collars - personally hate button downs, don’t fly in the city, love windsor or cut-aways - never heard of one being specific to a particular occasion

I wear stripes with patterns, as do many others, I even have a spotted tie that works with a stripe due to its colours

No brown shoes with a DARK grey suit. Light grey, though, should only be worn with brown shoes.

9

**no brown shoes with grey suit…class less **
Sigh.

Blue suit + black shoes or gray suit + black shoes = B.D.E. Bus Driver Effect

Unless you work at a VERY conservative law firm, or in a rather staid business in London, this simply isn’t true. Brown shoes are simply more interesting. The only mostly-absolutes when it comes to wearing black shoes are these:

  1. Funeral when wearing a black suit.
  2. With a standard shawl or notch collar black tuxedo or white dinner jacket w/black trousers.
  3. The darkest charcoal suits, or nail-head suits where the nail-head is black. And even then there are more interesting choices than solid black shoes.

One other note—no matter what color shoes you wear please don’t sport the following: bicycle toe shoes, square toe shoes, seriously pointy shoes (uber & cheap Italianos), anything with a tassel when wearing a suit (personal preference on the last).

The best resources on the net right now for what is current & classic in mens clothes are the forums at www.styleforum.net & www.askandyaboutclothes.com

Don’t buy your clothes from The Mens Warehouse. Don’t buy your clothes at the mall. 85% of the crap at outlet malls are now cheaply made & outlet mall specific. DO get to know a very good tailor. Fit, fabric, construction method are all much more important than the label. Get properly fitted & know your ideal suit/pant/shirt measurements & buy off those measurements, not off the supposedly size on the label.

FWIW, IMHO the best ready-wear suits on the market right now are Isaia, Canali, RLPL, Corollarosso, Dominic Spano (Bergdorfs in NY), Oxxford (hand-cut), and if price is no object Kiton & Brioni, though the last two are really cut narrow in the shoulders. Avoid Tom Ford like the plague. Ditto Brooks Brothers except for their Black Fleece line as their quality isn’t what it once was. Best shirts are Isaia, Borelli, and Brioni, in that order. Best business pants are made by Mabitex & Incotex, though Zanella & Zegnas (esp Loro Piana wools) have some nice fabrics but on me they all need heavy tailoring as they are cut for an American frame. And finally, the best shoes in the world are made in Budapest (Vass) & London (J. Lobb, Edward Green bench-made).

10

no brown shoes with grey suit…class less

Collars - personally hate button downs, don’t fly in the city, love windsor or cut-aways - never heard of one being specific to a particular occasion

I wear stripes with patterns, as do many others, I even have a spotted tie that works with a stripe due to its colours

No brown shoes with a DARK grey suit. Light grey, though, should only be worn with brown shoes.

Ah ha! Thank you! I’ve always thought this, and the guys at the men’s store told me this, but no one else believed me.

11

" Collars have more to do with the size/structure of your face/head than anything else."

“You want to compare brainpans. I won the Westinghouse prize when I was 12, big deal. Published at 19, so what. I got a double doctorate from MIT at 22, Chemistry and Geology. I taught at Princton for two and a half years. Why do I do this? Because the money’s good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives.”

Point is I have a big head… and watch crappy movies.

12

this is like a glimpse into a whole different world…

i kind of like wearing a suit on occasion. i only have 2, though, and even those don’t get as much wear as i’d like.

13

  1. I now only wear dark navy or black suits. No striped suits, or light colored (tan, etc).

  2. Collared shirts are completely fine every event. In fact that’s all I ever wear because I get a great deal at a particular store, so I’ve bought about 18 new shirts recently in solid white, solid light blue (not french blue), striped and more.

  3. There’s a tie for every kind of shirt.

  4. Black shoes only. Can never go wrong. Must be polished.

14

Call me an out of fashion loser, but I wear nothing but button down collars. They have a neat appearance to them.
Neat as in tidy, not neat as in cool. I also only wear solid white shirts. I will not wear stripes, and I will not wear
patterns. I have 1 French blue button down collar shirt, but outside of that, white only.
I cannot stand those French blue shirts with the white spread collars. Totally gay. I cannot stand spread collars, I think
they look awful on everybody.
Yeah, I’m a bit conservative.

15

  1. Shirts, there seems to be point collars spread collars and button downs.
    1a. It seems that button downs are frowned upon? if so why? Depending on the office, they can be. They are more casual. Historically they were for the country club. Not for the office.
    1b. if wearing a spread collar is that for a full windsor while a point collar is a half windsor or does it really matter? I don’t think so.
    1c. do different occasions call for spread vs. point?** I don’t think so, but you see the point collar in more professional dress settings.**

  2. if the occasion calls for a suit and tie is a full windsor ever inappropriate? Sure, if you can do it right.

  3. Shirts and ties. Are there any rules anymore? I think it used to be that you would never wear a striped shirt with a striped tie but I see this in stores and catalogs all the time. Can I wear patterned ties with stripe shirts? Depends. Some companies still believe in the white shirt with your suit. A light blue is acceptable on Friday. Others (more “fashion forward”) believe in anything goes.

If your question relates to a new job. Go dark suit, white shirt, and red/blue/yellow “basic” tie and see what your boss and his boss wears. Dress to the level above, not the young trendy guy.

16

As soon as you start seeing knit ties again, you can safely bust out the button down collars.

Before you get too fashion forward, take a look around your business associates and superiors. By way of example, colored and striped shirts are now acceptable in the law game, but even there, the vast majority are rocking the solid white or subtle patterned white. Partially custom, partially expectations and partially fashion casualty sum up the reasons. Look to your environment and then go find yourself a gay fashion maven and get help.

17

I know nothing about mens ties so I looked on Brook’s Brothers site. It has examples of seven different classic knots. They all look the same to me with the exception of the bow tie of course. Is this the male version of women having 7 different pair of black heels???

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/TieKnots/TieKnots.tem

18

  1. Shirts, there seems to be point collars spread collars and button downs.
    1a. It seems that button downs are frowned upon? if so why?
    1b. if wearing a spread collar is that for a full windsor while a point collar is a half windsor or does it really matter?
    1c. do different occasions call for spread vs. point?

  2. if the occasion calls for a suit and tie is a full windsor ever inappropriate?

  3. Shirts and ties. Are there any rules anymore? I think it used to be that you would never wear a striped shirt with a striped tie but I see this in stores and catalogs all the time. Can I wear patterned ties with stripe shirts?

Thanks.

You are WAY over-thinking this. Your comment at 1b is correct and that is probably the most important.
I think that stripes on both ties and shirts are fine as long as the two garment’s stripes are NOT parallel.

19

As soon as you start seeing knit ties again, you can safely bust out the button down collars.

I don’t know what you think about Brooks Brothers… but Ta Da

20

" Best business pants are made by Mabitex & Incotex, though Zanella & Zegnas (esp Loro Piana wools) have some nice fabrics but on me they all need heavy tailoring as they are cut for an American frame."

So what is your preference in business pants for a slimmer frame?