That would solve the problem of “how do we make slow time trialers have a chance of winning”
it does not solve the problem of having a tour de france with some transparency, honesty, and the option a level playing field for those who wish to dope in the manners allowed.
The transfusion with one’s own blood was the whole point of the Operacion Puerto thing. So it is definitely illegal, yet as was stated it cannot be tested for.
The way Jorg Jaksche described it in his admissions just before the tour, was that one did a hard training unit (possibly with EPO) in the early spring, take the “excess” red blood cells and then re-inject them close to or during the tour depending on the hard stages. Jaksche even spoke of a doctor in Germany, when the tour passed through Germany, whom he was supposed to meet, as part of Dr. Fuentes network, to re-inject the blood.
The solution to the doping problem was right in front of us all along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrCGYtFAQ2U
Yes, that’s what the doc in that article was saying. The training schedule of the pro riders would not allow for them to bank their own blood because they couldn’t afford the downtime that comes with donation.
3 weeks after taking blood out to be back to normal.
That doesn’t seem that bad. I’m sure you could work a couple of those into a season.
But even EPO doesn’t work overnight. I think it’s a flawed way of doing things. ANYWAY you look at it, you’re missing some valuable time. I don’t know if I believe the pros are doing that particular method.
You don’t have to stop training just because you are low on blood for a couple weeks man. People take breaks anyway for injury or recovery, or tapering for a BIG RACE (tour de france)
We KNOW people are doing these things, tons of them got caught just last year, tons have admitted it, so your opinion is self evidentially stupid, or ignorant really. I’m sorry I don’t have a polite way to phrase it without being inaccurate.
Perhaps they are, and perhaps it is my own ignorance, but riders doing the dauphine or the tour of switzerland or any of the races just prior to the tour as a “warmup” are doing so on low hemoglobins? They can’t store the blood indefinitely. As far as tons of them getting caught last year, yes, Puerto was a big deal, and there was autologous blood loaded with EPO found there, so obviously they are doing it. I guess I just wanted to stay wrapped in my naivete. Personally I don’t care if they dope, let em all do it.
Their are easy ways to do what you suggest. Many teams have a centrifuge at races and the other equipment necessary to check HC level. If above the allowable limit then you can give an IV to lower it within minutes.
In theory a test could be developed to test for reinjecting your own blood. Your blood is naturally a mix of red and white cells of a certain age. Pulling blood out, spinning it down, refridgerating it and putting it back in later changes these ratios of Red to white and new cells to old cells.
Styrrell
OK. What method is used to check the age of the cells? I don’t think you can freeze RBCs, or else they’ll break apart, but refrigeration can certainly slow deterioration. As for the RBC to WBC ratios, wouldn’t those be roughly the same, as long as the athlete was healthy when donating and re-injecting?
Yeah, why not do the race on low homeglobin? Just sit in the draft, dont attack, youll get a great workout
I’m not sure of the method, but I remember hearing that a method was being developed to test for blood doping, based on an analysis of the age of the rbc. The ratio of the rbc to wbc would stay constant if both rbc and wrb are put back in, instead of only the rbc. In addition I believe that removing blood causes an abnormal amount of “young” blood cells to be present, because your body is stimulated to replace the missing blood rapidly.
Styrrell
Sounds like an approach that might be confounded by crashes
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A couple different methods have been looked at over the years, the main problem is getting one that has a low enough false positive rate. The other thing is racing a 3 week grand tour does all sorts of strange things to your body, so there is some issues with that.
As for not being able to replace RBCs fast enough, you’d be suprised how fast you can get them up with some drug coaxing. RBCs have a shelf life of about 42 days maybe more if you’re really careful, so there is plenty of time to get some for race storage.
It sounds like it COULD work, but there would be a lot of exceptions. What if a guy crashed and bled? Or that freak accident w/ Hushovd last year with the sign? Plus, wouldn’t the extreme exertion of the Tour cause your body to produce more RBCs, as well as “use up” the same cells faster? What if a rider had lost his spleen- does that make a difference in RBC disposal? Not poking at you personally, I’m just:
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a geek who’s into the science
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wondering what kind of bizarre loopholes might be dreamt up- the whole chimerism/vanishing twin thing was the most outlandish so far.
That seems to be the problem with most of the blood tests. They are al based on tests originally developed for hospitals. They are concerned with giving someone the right blood type, so a blood typing test is developed. Adapting such a test to look for 1% of someone elses blood mixed in with yours and making that test 100% reliable is difficult.
Styrrell
Unfortunately the possible exceptions to the tests aren’t looked at as critically as they should be and the excuses can be very creative.
I’d be afraid if I was a non doping star to take a blood or urine test. Look at the EPO test. At least one very prominant runner had a A sample test positive. The test was leaked and the B sample was found to be negative. Therefor the runner was cleared.
If it was a crimanal trial in the US, my guess is the next person who had a positive would point to the previous A/B discrepancy and get any tests using that method thrown out.
Styrrell
I, too, was under the impression that they could now differentiate the age of the RBC and I believe that they have used this test in the last year.