Question For the Top AGers and Pros

Triathlon Forum
1

Do you guys and gals get tired of reading the questions asking about form improvement, equipment, and training here, from people much slower and worse than you are, as a triathlete, newer to the sport than you are? Or maybe you are swarmed with requests from other triathletes not as good, wanting to ride with you, or swim or run?

This has got to happen, a lot.

My thinking is that once you get any good in something athletic, I’m talking about very good, you get all of these form and equipment questions, requests to train togehter, and the conclusion you might reach about everytime is that person just doesn’t get it, not only that, he’s not ever going to get it. Either you got it, or you don’t. It’s not the bike, it’s not the shoes. It’s not your form. That’s one personality. The other is, being humble and glad about your skill, and being real helpful to initiates into the sport. I bring this up, because I think the surest sign of burnout is reaching that first personality.

I was a pretty good tennis player down here when I was young, if I don’t say so myself, once ranked in the state. I played for my college team. It was about the only sport I did extremely well in. After thinking about it this morning, I never thought about my form, or my swing, or my racquet much at all, as if that was “THE ANSWER.” Those weighed in, but for the most part, I couldn’t explain it, I had played a lot, as a young kid, and it just came natural to me. But for the really, really good players, none of us would sit around at a tournament talking about a racquet, or equipment, at least not very long.

I just played and played and was obsessed with the sport, practiced all the time. The surest sign of somebody who sucked was invariably somebody constantly talking about replacing equipment. They just were never any good.

Yet, I remember being constantly besieged by friends and friends of friends, on what racquet they should buy…would I go out and hit with them and see what they were doing wrong… how do I hit a topspin serve, and so on. Constantly. Come play with me. What are you doing today? We’ll go play, and I’ll buy you some beer. Come on. Let’s go. I need the practice, and I’d hear, it again: Tell me what I’m doing wrong. Should I get a different racquet? What about my follow through. Look at it. What about this double backhand? Or, I want to do a double backhand like that, but like Bjorn Borg. Or, What do you think? Watch. What’s the best way to do that or this?

It got to the point where I just couldn’t take it any more, and just started being real brutal with them, in hitting practice balls, real hard at them. What started off over the years in being nice ended up with: “yeah, I’ll go out there with you, but I’m going to be hitting them real hard.”

And, you know, I think demolishment is the best thing for them. They’ll either suck it up, drop back and keep the obsession going, work on things, and get better, or just quit.

2

I bet at some point in your life you had an instructor teach you how to hit various shots or give you points of intruction. That is the beauty of youth though. You recieve and absorb the info. Applying it is that much easier when you are younger. Same way with me in soccer. I was an outstanding player in high school and an average one in college. People were always asking for tips and how I did this and that. I couldn’t really explain it, i just did it. But I know I was taught to do it by someone else.

3

Define top Age Grouper… on the local podium? Top 5 or 10 in AG or 25 OA at big events?

5

as a local top 10er and state/regional 10%er I’ll chime:

I must not be burnt out. I genuinely enjoy dispensing advice (in person, not so much online) to the ppl behind me IF they ask…even if they’re only seconds behind. If I’m to stay ahead of the latter, I have to work that much harder and I like it. I like to think that I gear the response to the right level, too. An outright newbie doesn’t really need to know which aerobar to buy…they need to understand basic positioning precepts first…WHY they’re in the market for an aerobar.

As for working out together, I try to follow more of a Coach Gordo approach: if it’s on their nickle (or, in my case, if I’ve already got my workouts in for the day), I’ll dial it back and do right by 'em. If it’s on MY time then it’s MY workout and you sit in, shaddap, and hang on. I’ll warn you what’s coming next, but it’s up to you to stay close enough to hear the warning. So far, no complaints. Not a lot of takers either, but that’s beside the point. Or is it…

6

I hope you realize that the bike frame you are on is made in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and I think, for Texas shipped Jav frames, to Austin, Texas riders, that, after a few years, the paint is planned to wear off on the downtube to gradually show, an upside down Hook Em Horns logo. Call Scott Warren and ask him. He’ll explain it how he did that with his fancy laser gun and this new kind of dissolving paint, he got from japan, that he’s been working with.

No, I’m kidding. Excellent frames which are just a bit too expensive for me. He’s now got a whole new lineup, with titanium frames, now.

7

I was once a bumbling newbie with no idea that there was such a thing as clipless pedals, or that sneakers were not the same as running shoes. I don’t get tired of reading so much as I get tired of typing. :wink: Besides that, without triathlon/multisports to discuss with folks, I would just wind up sitting in the corner and drooling.

8

I guess I shouldn’t ask these top people so many questions! If they’re being rude to me, I don’t see it…heck, even Francois and Gordo seem to be patient with me when I bug them. I guess they’re not too burnt out. I’m just glad they make themselves available to an aging grunt like me. I’m know the interaction probably beneficial in only one direction, towards me, so, perhaps I should consider that I may be bugging them…then again, it is the internet, so, maybe it isn’t bugging them as much as if it were in person.

In person, there is a local coach that’s a fantastic runner (15:XX 5K seems fantastic to me), and I’ve had the privilege to train with him a few times, and I’ve ridden with him a couple of times (he’s got lots of room to improve on his bike, but, he could smoke me anyway on the bike as long as it was a hillclimb). But, you know, I find I don’t ask him questions about running. When around someone that much better than the rest of us, I simply go along with whatever the workout is, and enjoy seeing them move efficiently over the earth.

So, I guess I’m not as much of a pest in person as I am on the internet.

9

People are often mystified when I tell them my theories on training and how to improve performance. I think the reasons for this is that they are very back to basic and old-school. I think this is because I have a BSc in Biochemistry with a minor in human physiology, so I can seperate fact from fiction pretty quickly. Also, I know from personal experience and numerous conversations and communications with top athletes and coaches that the best and most solid improvment comes from steady, consistant hard work, for months and months and years and years. I have said this before, here but it’s worth repeating - many people would be very suprised at how basic, simple and straight forward the training is for many top endurance athletes really is. You can make this stuff as complicated or as simple as you want. I say this with the utmost respect, but what I find rather ironic is that the people that seem to want the most complex and detailed information are in the middle to back of the pack. There is absolutly nothing wrong with this, but my sense is that some of the bigger messages about that are really important when it comes to training are being lost in all the complexity

It’s been said that it takes 5 years of training just to get ready to REALLY train for an IM. I believe this to be the case, but the challenge is that we have many people coming into the sport and want to jump right up to the full IM distance in a year or two.

10

Assuming I’m privileged enough to join this discussion:

Since I’m still relatively new to the sport (third year), I’m still on the learning curve myself. I really enjoy exchanging ideas and discussing training with others, because you never know where you’re going to get the next cool idea for a training ride or run.

I think what separates triathlon from many other sports (like tennis) is its size. As much as we’d like to think otherwise, we’re still a tiny niche in the sporting community. I don’t have the money to burn on coaching services, so I am self-taught and -coached. That means I had to read everything I could get my hands on (thank you Gordo for your website!), use my mind to figure out what philosophies made sense and what’s bs, and be willing to experiment on myself in my training. My training is constantly evolving and I enjoy tweaking my schedule to incorporate new (to me) ideas. If people want to learn from what I’ve done, I am more than happy to share and discuss. I’m forever indebted to a number of folks who I have met and learned from (ranging from Peter Reid to David Greenfield at Elite Bicycles to my training partners here in Princeton), and if this is the way I can repay them by sharing with the rest of triathlon community, I am more than happy to do my part.

I do triathlons for two reasons: to test my own boundaries and limits, and to be a part of a community that shares my interests. If folks want to tag along for swims, bikes, and runs with me, please by all means join in because it’s pretty lonely out there by myself. My responsibility then is to clearly communicate what the route and intensity is going to be beforehand, so then it’s up to you to hang on (baring mechanicals).

Chris Martin

12

I’m poor and slow and nobody will talk to me.

13

my qualifications to answer: 2 sprint wins this year, 3 last year and one (1m/41/9.5) win the year before)…that being said, im no where near the level of sergio or fleck…so take my opinion for whats it worth…oh, and i suck at ironmans…i usually have 1 or 2 out of 3 splits that are decent and have one awful one. havent figured IMs out yet, still a work in progress, stayed tuned…(im finally just committed to improving at the IM distance)

in the past two years ive coached a masters team and individual athletes. masters i did for free and my biggest frustration are people who are so concerned about their stroke they dont spend anytime swimming. i have no swimming background but in my last sprint race of the year i came out of the water third. granted the wetsuit helps :), but its the fact that over the last three years i swam 6 days a week between november and april that made the difference. there is no substitute for hardwork. i get bombarded with people yapping about strokes per length, stroke rate, how does my stroke look? shut up and swim…(not that i dont think stroke isnt important but most triathletes strokes really arent that bad, its the engine thats weak, the swimming engine, that is)

ive also coached several athletes. first off, no one wants to pay, so thats frustration #1, #2 is that you start to give them workouts and they realize quickly that you are fast for a reason, cause you work your tail off. so i find very quickly that people start blowing your training off, and believe me, i keep it reasonable and totally tailored to the individual, i just want to push people past their comfort zone. i have had some stick with my plans and become overjoyed when they realize success. there are no shortcuts. triathlon isnt rocket science, its about hard work. if youve been reading the epic camp updates you saw that bjorn rode something like 7 hrs the other day. its no surprise then, that hes one of, if not the fastest, bikers in the world.

equipment questions are totally fair, i wish i had somebody to explain the basics when i was first starting. yeah, i did have one guy ask me why his bike split at a half wasnt much faster than the year before, afterall he went out and bought a new bike…his reasoning was that the bike was worth $4000 so it should have been worth at least 15 or 20 minutes :slight_smile:

training with others, i rarely do. not for any reason other than im anal and like to operate off of my own schedule. if i feel like running at 4pm, i want to be running at 4pm, not 4:15pm. i dont get asked often, but most people know im grumpy by nature and how uptight i am about sticking to a schedule. ive told people (even some who are faster than me) ‘i dont need you to train, i can do it on my own, be on time’…yes, i have my charming moments.

i think the ‘slower’ folks will find that the faster folks are really accessible and dont mind answering questions at all. doesnt matter if youre fast or slow, you can love the sport enough to talk about it to anyone. if you are asking for advice, do the person youre asking it of a favor and try to follow it.

14

Booth:

I played college tennis and taught for 2 years as a teaching pro.

Teaching requires patience, patience, patience and a love for the people you are teaching. Without it, you can’t be a good coach or teacher.

Oddly, I switched from baseball to tennis precisely because one of the state’s top tennis players was extremely viscious towards me and his younger brother (my then best friend) on the tennis court. I was so pissed I vowed to learned the game and then came to love it. I lettered in high school and went on to a college scholarship. The bully went on to the U.S.Naval Academy and is now a retired admiral and really became a great guy despite his juvenile behavior.

So, yes, for some aggressive males, that behavior may work. But it is not a great way to teach anyone. Furthermore, most of the elites and pros who appear here are very patient and tolerant of our patent stupidity. With the exception of smartasscoach, who has his own style, I’d say they present a fairly uniform professional demeanor.

Anyway, now I know why you are almost as slow as me! A long run was 20 feet!!!

-Robert

15

Are you saying that you’re sick of people asking ‘you’ questions? Isn’t that the idea of a forum, to talk, discuss, ask…

Being new to the sport (new to doing all three in one go, but not new to the individual sports) I find I’ve learnt loads hangin around here - and I really appreciate all the help people have given me. Luckily the majority of ST’ers are friendly and extremely helpful, always willing to share an experience or give advice. I don’t mind the form questions/discussions, I like hearing other peoples opinions/comments, whether I agree with them or not.

I think opinions and questions are what make this forum interesting. Without them we would just have a bunch of pro’s talking about the election or something (since “really, really good players, none of us would sit around at a tournament talking about a racquet, or equipment, at least not very long” that would be a great tri forum :wink: ).

tom

16

locally, I get asked lots of questions, not cause I am any good, but because I have been around racing tris for 20 years or so and I write a lot. Usually I get home, and I have emails from 2-10 people at any time during the tri season. I don’t mind answering, cause:

  1. Its more fun that watching TV

  2. It helps people avoid all the dumb mistakes I have made and if anything, I’ve made every dumb mistake there is

  3. It reminds me about many of the basics of the sport (technique, pacing and strategy) that I often forget and take for granted and then I mess up in my own racing

  4. Nice way to meet new faces

  5. Help my friends who get paid as coaches for a living. I’ll help someone out of the goodness of my heart for a while, but when it gets to the point that I am essentially coaching the person in some aspect, I refer them to my coach buddies.

  6. Teach newbies that it is not about the destination (race result), but the ride along the way (training, fun and positive approach to fitness).

17

No…no, no. You need to read that again.

I’m the slowest beast here.

I just wonder what the hardcore top ag’ers think about all of us who talk about getting equipment and the constant probing and following of what they are doing.

18

3 years ago i was doing my first triathlon which happened to be an Ironman and had no clue what I was doing. Needless to say it was a horrorshow but afterwards i did decide to get serious about the sport. Soon afterwards I found this site which was an invaluable source of information on how to train and race triathlon. I asked about every stupid question I could think of and learned tons from a lot of the great athletes on this forum. This forum and those like it got me from horrifying death slog to Hawaii in my very next Ironman. In my 4th ironman i cracked the top 30 but I’m still learning every day. I really enjoy helping newcomers to the sport because I want them to do well and not make the mistakes I made. In my area we have somewhat of a triathlon boom going on and by encouraging and helping the newcomers will keep the tri scene healthy. At parties there is always a little group of us in the corner talking tri. We are known as “the freaks”.

Training is tough due to pace issues. If you want to be fast you can’t train slow which limits training partners.

19

I think it comes down to how well you want to do… I find in this sport (well… the three sports combined) there is so much information, that you can always learn. I firmly believe that in order to master a sport, you need to understand everything about it… thus talk to people, I tell people all the time about what I’m doing, and how I think they could improve, and i’m constantly soliciting advice from other people about how to improve. No-one is perfect… unless you can TT like Lance, swim like Grant Hackett, and run like El Gerouge, you have something to learn. I’ve been doing tri’s for 5 years, was 15th at elite nats (canada) and the best part about this is that I’m young (20) so think how much more I can learn. Its also cool cause I’m doing a Bsc in life science at university, so we get a very good grounding in how the body works… well… biochemistry just seems boring… but hopefully that should improve… unfortunatly its not Kin, so we don’t get how the body responds to exercise, but with all the reading i do, it ties in very well.
In regards to practicing with them… no, I don’t practice with people who are alot slower than me… I will happily help them/practice with them once I’m done my main workout, but I need to workout with people who can push me, otherwise i’m just wasting the very limited time that I have.

20

I’m with Mr. Bulldog

#2 is that you start to give them workouts and they realize quickly that you are fast for a reason, cause you work your tail off.

I don’t think people really understand how hard it is to be really good. The longer the race, the more unbelievable. When I tell people I ran 12 hours last week with 4.5 hours on the bike (running Marine Corps Marathon), they give me the mutant with two heads look. It’s nearly incomprehensible.

Having said that, I love to tell people what has worked for me. It costs nothing and I hope people can achieve their goals. I’ve been blessed with fast running body, I’m pretty good at cycling and I don’t drown in the water. Those three things have combined with hard work to help me finish in the top 3 percent of a recent very competitive (I thought) half ironman in Northern California. If someone asks me how I did it though, I suspect they might be dissappointed. For June, July and August I averaged 8.5 hours cycling and 7.5 hours running each week.

Nothing special, just lots of early mornings, lunch workouts and Saturday mornings killing myself in the heat. I just dnf’ed my first race and I am over it because racing is just the testing part of training. I love to run and ride. This is a great sport.

Chad

21

booth,

couple of things…imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. if you truly want to get better, theres no better way than to become part of a faster crowd. you should ask questions that may make a difference and there is absolutely nothing wrong in doing so. anybody with any level of self confidence will offer you their ‘secrets’. also, another way to respond to your second post…there are some pretty fast dudes on this forum and they always talk about bjorn, reid, deboom, etc…following the faster folks is part of the dream. keep at it.

22

Good Lord, YES! All the time!

I’m always asked to check out someone’s stroke, or someone wants to ride or run with me. As much as I’d like to help them (assuming I could), it’s my very limited training time and I don’t want to hold up for anyone. I don’t mind if someone wants to run with me, but, they’ve got to *run with me *and I’m not waiting up for them. Same with bike riding. I’ve had several at work who will no longer ride with me. I take them on these very hilly routes, things I can do during my lunch hour. It’s too much for them to fit in the time frame and they’re late getting back to work. So they never ride with me again. They ask what route I’m doing today, then avoid that route. Only one person can hang. Actually he kicks my butt, but he also won L.A. Tri AG overall last year and swims/rides at a pro level pace.

My wife has a friend that does tri’s and sthis gal thinks her swim is not at the level of her run and ride. She asked if I wouldn’t mind checking out her stroke. I don’t think I’ll mind. She’s pretty cute and this way I can legitamately stare at her. Oh, and give her some pointers… as if that will be the miracle pill that will make her swim faster.