Relative to the other people I swim with in my Monday night masters class I am much faster doing 25s than 100s-500s, meaning I can keep up with some of the fast people in lane one for 4x25 as hard as you can, but can barely hang with the lane 3 folks for any other distance. For an idea of what I am talking about - I can do a 25 in 36 seconds, but my best 100 is 1:30, absolute best 500 is 8:16. What gives? Though I could be wrong, I don’t think its a matter of general endurance (4k swin session is a good workout but I can do it, just not that fast, did an open water 3 mile swim a month ago with no problem, just not that fast, etc). Also, there is a huge difference just in the comparison of who in my class I can hang with for a 25 vs a 100 all out. What I am most interested in is what, if anything, this says about what I am doing wrong in my training - are there specific drills (or sets) that tend to help people with this sort of issue/speed imbalance, particularly given the fact I am training for IM? Also, I have always assumed that I just had a pretty low potential to swim very fast for triathlon - could this mean otherwise (unlikely, I know, but you gotta hope, right?).
My situation is similar to yours: a relatively quick 25m, about the same for 100m, but even slower than you for 500m. I think it means we both need to work on our form. Specific drills would depend on which elements of your form need the most work. You should have a coach, or someone who knows something about swimming, watch you in the water and advise you on what you need to work on.
It could be a form matter. It could be that, unlike the rest of the people in your lane, you’ve actually figured out how to sprint a little bit. Most fish have a pretty huge difference betwen 50 speed and 500 speed (26 for 50, 5:40 for 500 in my case)
There’s no way the invisible people on the internet can tell you either way without some sort of video clip. The 500 time isn’t horrible; it’s just rather average for a triathlon swimmer.
Get some feedback from a coach on the pool deck about glaring stroke flaws. If there are allegedly aren’t any, the idea is to work on gradually lowering your aerobic threshold pace (average pace from a 30 minute or 3K time trial) downward. You want sets that will be making you work moderately hard to get your 5-10 seconds of rest per 100.
Right. Sorry about that - its a 50 in 36 seconds (which I knowis still not flying). The 25s I am judging by the pace I can keep with others who are much better swimmers
Yeah, I have littel doubt its an issue of form. unfortunately, since I first learned to swim about 4 years ago, each coach who has seen me swim has thus far had a different idea about what I am doing wrong. I was just wondering if this was indicative of any particular form problem I could focus on.
Without video of what you’re doing now, there really is no way to tell, since there could be a half dozen different things that you could be correcting, or it could be you’ve got the basics pretty much down, and it’s just going to take some yardage to get the other times to start to drop.
And it could be that you’re just a bit more fast twitch than you thought you were. My college friend Andy had a prefectly wonderful freestyle that got him a couple different All American awards as a 50/100 guy, but he could only break 6:00 for a 500 free if it involved being chased by a school of rabid piranhas. He’s an extreme case, but a time lag between different distances isn’t inerently a signal that you’ve got a problem.
thanks alot fpr the insight/pointers - makes good sense to me. I will ask our new coach on deck what he thinks. In the meantime I will look for a race with a 50 yard swim, 112 mile bike and 26 mile run.
Most likely you can hold good form for a 50 but lack the specific muscular endurance to hold good form for much longer than that. The muscular endurance and strength needed to hold good form at speed is a whole different thing than basic cardio endurance that will get your through a 3K swim. Do your arms hurt after you do a fast 50? Where? What happens if you try and hold that pace as long as you can?
The best drill you can do is swim your fastest 50 then keep going at that pace and monitor exactly how you fall apart. What goes bad will tell you what you have to work on. This is where all those drills you have been doing come into play. The purpose of drills is not to teach you how to swim fast but to teach you what proper form feels like so you can recognize when you are losing it while under stress and make adjustments. The improvement comes when you are under stress but still able to recognize that you need to adjust.
As you keep stressing and adjusting to meet the stress, you will get stronger and be able to hold a faster pace longer. When you can hold a faster pace longer, you can train harder and the cycle just keeps going on and on.
there’s no doubt it’s a form question. Think of it this way, you can muscle through about ANYTHING for 36 seconds. But like riding/running you will fall apart at that intensity over time.
work to reduce you stroke count, but keep time the SAME. It’s a bi@tch.
Swim coach time, for sure. 36 @ 50 isn’t horrible, so you’re not doing anything hugely wrong I bet. Just need some tweaks. An underwater video is probably in order.
Listen to FLA_Jill. Given your posted times, what is more surprising to me is your sprint isn’t faster (lower 30s). Your 100 and 500 time differentials are pretty much on the mark, assuming that your 100 was full out and your 500 was probably at something like 85-90% pace. Given your 100 time I would have guessed you would pace a 500 at 1:40 - and that is about right where you are. It is also where I was before starting Master’s in March. So if your technique is decent, it really is a matter of yardage and working on your aedrobic threshold.
One really useful thing is get someone to give you your 100 splits on your 500. Try to keep consistant. If you are constantly dropping time, then there is an endurance issue leading to form breakdown most likely. If you are pretty even, then it is just a slow process of building speed and strength. Once you hit the sort of “competant” swimmer level, it really becomes a lot of work to bring your times down. And remember, you may gain 2 seconds a length, that is only 8 seconds per hundred, and 40 seconds per 500 if you can maintian it. You won’t see some the reductions in times the way you would in running or cycling. And for some reason, at least for me, the plateaus are a lot longer in swimming.
Something else that might be going on is that the fish might be loafing those 25s. I sure do, since I hate them so much. I just make sure that no one in the “triathlete lane” touches before I do. My coach is sure to point it out to everyone when it happens. So, my only motivation on a set of all-out 25s is to avoid the public mockery from the guy on the deck.
36 for a 50yd is not blazing and there may not be a imbalance here. Like others said, you can muscle through a 50, but not a 500.
If you can finish within 3secs of the faster swimmers then that may be what is expected. When you get down to shorter distences the time is more significant. 22sec 50yd swimmers are a dime a dozen, yet 20sec swimmers are national caliber. I can hold 1:15/100yd pretty easily in distence sets, but in 50’s I usually come in between 30-35, depending on how hard I’m really trying.
The faster swimmers are probably working harder throughout the entire practice. They may be doing 300 repeats, while you are doing 100’s, or on a perportionally faster time. They may be getting in 4,000yds an hour, while you guys are getting in 2,500. And slower swimmers (you) may be in better shape, just minus the specific endurance for swimming.
You seem to lack muscular endurance, like most recreational swimmers, and probably have some stroke flaws. Does this mean you should get underwater taped and do endless drills? That’s up to you and it’s for another thread. My advice is no. I’ve been underwater taped and took a list of drills to the pool before. In my opinion it was useless. I got faster by doing hard workouts of about 6,000yd (a couple of days >15,000) a day over the winter.
Thanks alot for the advice. The only reason the question came to my mind is that one of the guys from the fast lane was really, really surprised I was beating their lane to the wall and told me so, that was what got me curious about the whole thing.
Given all the cycling/running I do, I’d guess I am in better overall cardiovascular shape than those faster guys and I am also pretty sure I am significantly physically stronger, but obviously (and sadly) that does not translate to muscular endurance in the water.
I will definitely get our new coach’s take - maybe he can notice something I am doing in the 50s + 25s I am not doing once I go longer. My only hesitation there is that while no coach who has ever seen me has said my form was great, or frankly even good, they just each had a very different idea of the problem (sinking legs/no kick, poor entry with my left arm, highly inflexible feet + fairly inflexible shoulders, poor rotation, not getting a good catch - you name it. That all said, if this were all so easy they’d call it an easyathlon and they don’t.
Given all the cycling/running I do, I’d guess I am in better overall cardiovascular shape than those faster guys and I am also pretty sure I am significantly physically stronger, but obviously (and sadly) that does not translate to muscular endurance in the water.
Swimming is almost 100% form, even if you are a complete stick, you can still fly through the water all on your form,
So work on those drills and train the technique into your muscles, swimming isn’t about strength but it’s about efficiency.
So work on those drills and train the technique into your muscles, swimming isn’t about strength but it’s about efficiency.
I’m sorry, but I disagree. I wouldn’t make a habit out of only doing drills. In an average workout I’d only do about 200yds of drills. To me long distence swimming is about muscular endurance, aerobic capacity, and biomachanics. I think it’s a mistake to make a blanket statement, like the one above, without listing your credentials or saying, “IMO.” This is why I’d only take advice from my coach.
Regarding the advice given, it could be all of these things. We all have numerous faults in our stroke. You may just have to iron them out, one by one. As you get faster, the faults get smaller, but they’re still there …
Flexibility seems to be mentioned a lot, so I would work on that, especially since it requires very little effort (compared to 30 x 100m!). Pay attention to your shoulders, ankles, knees and core.
