Question for Jimmy: Using Rubberized swimskins as trisuit for cold weather/rain races

[devashish_paul]

Hey guys,

5 mm neoprene is the limit on thickness of wetsuit. A bunch of us raced recently in the cold and rain. A few years ago, for a pool tri, a buddy of mine just decided to keep his Blue Seventy PointZero swimskin on for the entire bike as it was raining and cold.

If you wore one of these under your wetsuit, what’s the USAT and WTC position on “thickness”. The idea would be to eliminate a flapping jacket for those of us who have low tolerance for cold, but I believe this would put us “over the thickness” limit on rubber. Any USAT officials or perhaps Jimmy from WTC can chime in.

This is not pink font, it is a serious question. It would work nicely for those of us with low body fat in 10C and driving rain.

Dev

[styrrell]

I bet thats something that hasn’t come up. My feeling is that its technically illegal, but I doubt you would get caught. If you want to stay legal then put the swimskin on after the swim.

[Nick_Mallett]

I’ve been using a 2mm wetsuit vest and neoprene gloves to keep my core temp up on my cold bike tours for years now and recently started usung a 2mm long sleeved wetsuit top for my winter swim/run workouts here on the beach on the Gold Coast(10C).I have been riding in it a bit during the crap weather we have been having lately…I started experimenting with cut-down wetsuits during one winter in Penticton and found that wearing a long sleeved wetsuit top with neoprene gloves and boots had me riding at minus 15C without any worries…

I think putting on a wetsuit vest in T1 is a great idea…

---

[devashish_paul]

Well, I definitely don’t want to do anything illegal. Would rather hear from Jimmy. Using the old Swimskin would be much better than a flapping raincoat and would make for a quick transition.

Ultratriguy, your idea of a 2mm wetsuit top for rain rides makes a ton of sense. Also I have to do a lot of rides here in late March/April where the temps are hovering around 0C when I start. The 2 mm neoprene might be a great option for genrating a “self contained St. Croix style heat and humidity zone” without having to be bolted to the trainer!!!

[Nick_Mallett]

Well, I definitely don’t want to do anything illegal. Would rather hear from Jimmy. Using the old Swimskin would be much better than a flapping raincoat and would make for a quick transition.

Ultratriguy, your idea of a 2mm wetsuit top for rain rides makes a ton of sense. Also I have to do a lot of rides here in late March/April where the temps are hovering around 0C when I start. The 2 mm neoprene might be a great option for genrating a “self contained St. Croix style heat and humidity zone” without having to be bolted to the trainer!!!

===

Dev,go to your local outdoor adventure store and check out the kayaking/canyoning wetsuit tops…They come in 1mm and 2mm and more…They also have neoprene shorts/gloves/hats.

I am using a Rip Curl surfing top but there are all kinds of brands.

One thing though,go straight home after you are done training as you will be soaking wet underneath.Toasty warm but soaking wet.
For the Aussies who want to stay warm,check this site out.

www.sharkskin.com.au

[Longboarder]

After reading about this weekends race I’m packing my DeSoto Speedvest for IMMT. Not for the swim, for the bike if needed.

http://www.desotosport.com/…;Category_Code=speed

PS if it’s really cold I’ll just leave my T1 top on after the swim.

[Former_User]

Well, I definitely don’t want to do anything illegal. Would rather hear from Jimmy. Using the old Swimskin would be much better than a flapping raincoat and would make for a quick transition.

Ultratriguy, your idea of a 2mm wetsuit top for rain rides makes a ton of sense. Also I have to do a lot of rides here in late March/April where the temps are hovering around 0C when I start. The 2 mm neoprene might be a great option for genrating a “self contained St. Croix style heat and humidity zone” without having to be bolted to the trainer!!!

Get a DeSoto wetsuit top and no bottom. Should be good to go.

[h2ofun]

Dev, here is the rule.

“Effective January 1, 2013, any swimmer wearing a wetsuit with a thickness measured in any part greater than five millimeters shall be disqualified.”

Now, to me the key word is part.

part    Show IPA
noun
1.
a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent: the rear part of the house; to glue the two parts together.

So, the way I read this is any part of what you are wearing cannot be greater than 5mm. It says nothing that you cannot have multiple parts, where the total cross section of the area
can be as thick as you want it it be. If this were not true, then most, if not all wet suits will be illegal since if you take the “part” at 5mm, and then add the flap let’s say over the zipper,
these parts together would be over 5mm.

Still not sure how they are going to enforce this since from what I have been told by folks in the industry, there is more than 1 wetsuit that has a part of 5mm thick.

.

[Dan_Rishworth]

Dev,

I don’t know the answer, but my first thoughts are that this is like the Desoto issue where the overlap of the top and bottom exceeded 5mm in total. That loophole is now closed. The old swim skins are legal in all wetsuit-legal races so this to me is the same issue. The overlap can’t exceed 5mm.

Second, I’m not sure how the old swim skins would stand up to bike mileage. I would say not well (but we never thought to test it ;). As for the run, I suppose you could remove it if the day warmed up (although that is not going to make for a quick T2) but running in one if the sun comes out would be dehydrating to say the least!

Dan Rishworth | Founder

http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.facebook.com/nineteenwetsuits
http://www.twitter.com/nineteenwetsuit

[h2ofun]

Dev,

I don’t know the answer, but my first thoughts are that this is like the Desoto issue where the overlap of the top and bottom exceeded 5mm in total. That loophole is now closed. The old swim skins are legal in all wetsuit-legal races so this to me is the same issue. The overlap can’t exceed 5mm.

Second, I’m not sure how the old swim skins would stand up to bike mileage. I would say not well (but we never thought to test it ;). As for the run, I suppose you could remove it if the day warmed up (although that is not going to make for a quick T2) but running in one if the sun comes out would be dehydrating to say the least!

Dan Rishworth | Founder

http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.facebook.com/nineteenwetsuits
http://www.twitter.com/nineteenwetsuit

Can you show me how in the new rule, where it says part, the overlap can’t exceed 5mm? If the case is no cross section can contain any combination of parts such that it cannot exceed 5mm, then it should say that and not “part”. (It does not even say parts in the new rule)

How was a loophole closed on the Desoto issue? Again, the rule says part, not parts, or cross section of parts or anything like that.

.

[Dan_Rishworth]

As I first said, I don’t know the answer. The rules leave a lot to interpretation. Certainly where the bottom of a Nineteen zipper is reinforced I would not be surprised find that it exceeds 5mm. Also, as Slowman pointed out at the time, when Yamamoto produces 5mm neoprene it can measure 0.5mm thicker or thinner depending on the sheet and lamination.

The loophole for the Water Rover was only closed by that suit being banned by name by the WTC, but clearly the intent was there on the WTC’s part. If you were to wear a 2mm or 3mm neoprene vest under your 5mm wetsuit you would run afoul of the intent of the 5mm max thickness rule. Will Dev have a problem with his 0.5mm neoprene swim skin/race suit? Dev will find out, but certainly wearing a race suit under a swim skin under a wetsuit seems to me to be circumventing the 5mm rule even if advantage gained is only warmth.

Dan Rishworth | Founder

http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.facebook.com/nineteenwetsuits
http://www.twitter.com/nineteenwetsuit

[styrrell]

First off you know what the intent of the rule is. Nothig over 5 mm. But if you have to be that guy, then a “wetsuit” is the entire suit in toto. So the top, bottom , liner, outer portion, armsleeves.etc. comprise the “wetsuit” and no part can exceed 5mm.

[h2ofun]

First off you know what the intent of the rule is. Nothig over 5 mm. But if you have to be that guy, then a “wetsuit” is the entire suit in toto. So the top, bottom , liner, outer portion, armsleeves.etc. comprise the “wetsuit” and no part can exceed 5mm.

The part things is easy. But, IMO, as the rule is written, one could wear multiple suits, or speed suits, etc. since no since part is over 5mm. Intent means nothing. Just look at all the comments about getting your bib
to someone else where the rule is black and white, no intent, and many still ignore it and justify why their actions to ignore it is okay.

.

[h2ofun]

As I first said, I don’t know the answer. The rules leave a lot to interpretation. Certainly where the bottom of a Nineteen zipper is reinforced I would not be surprised find that it exceeds 5mm. Also, as Slowman pointed out at the time, when Yamamoto produces 5mm neoprene it can measure 0.5mm thicker or thinner depending on the sheet and lamination.

The loophole for the Water Rover was only closed by that suit being banned by name by the WTC, but clearly the intent was there on the WTC’s part. If you were to wear a 2mm or 3mm neoprene vest under your 5mm wetsuit you would run afoul of the intent of the 5mm max thickness rule. Will Dev have a problem with his 0.5mm neoprene swim skin/race suit? Dev will find out, but certainly wearing a race suit under a swim skin under a wetsuit seems to me to be circumventing the 5mm rule even if advantage gained is only warmth.

Dan Rishworth | Founder

http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.facebook.com/nineteenwetsuits
http://www.twitter.com/nineteenwetsuit

I have been asking USAT since this first came up to see a very clear definition as to what the rule is. So far as you stated, the interpretation, IMO does allow Dev to wear a speed suit under a wetsuit and be legal.

Part is not parts or cross section, etc. The rule talks about nothing about if overlapping is okay. So for folks like you and others in the wetsuit business, this sure could become very interesting next year since
what happens when some RD’s interprete the rule one way and other RD do it differently? As I read it, if I were to put our race on again, folks could wear as much stuff as they wanted and look like the dough
boy as long as any part is not over 5mm. I do not read rules with intent, I read them as written, and right now, multiple stuff clearly, IMO, is legal.

And as I posted, I have been told other mfg’s have had or have wetsuits with parts over 5mm, not just the water rover.

I just hope they get rid of the rule since other than the few elites on the USAT who pushed this, basically anyone I talk with could care less. Now, if they get rid of aero bars, disc wheels, etc. that allow a speed advantage,
then they care about the big picture, rather than their personal agenda.

.

[devashish_paul]

OK, just to be clear, my only intention here is to have a warm and water repellent suit on during the bike when it is raining that will do the job without flapping that I can swim with under a wetsuit so I have fast transitions. A raincoat does not fall into this category.

But I don’t want to exceed the limitation of the rule, whether it is the written rule or intent of the rule. I never actually had one of the old swimskins, so I don’t even know how “thick” these are and if they “add up” to anything significant.

That’s it, that’s all.

When it was legal I considered buying a water rover but decided that I would not. While I am in a competition with other athletes, I also want to be able to compare my performances with my former self. Using a water rover would not allow me to compete against my former times. So I never bought one. On the balance, I don’t really find that any wetsuit that is 5 mm is any faster than the other. Basically all 5 mm wetsuits seem to be the same speed, and the only time the speed is any different is when they fit incorrectly (then they are slower). Take 5 correctly fitting suits, and at my performance level, I’ll swim the same speed in all of them. But if I stick a swimskin underneath and this effectively gives me 6 mm or 7 mm of buoyancy then I don’t want it. I just thought that these old skins are so thin that they they don’t help float a human…just repel water.

Dan, can you comment on that? Do the old swim skins add floatation for an entire human or are they just in the water repellent category?

[Dan_Rishworth]

Dev,

The Nineteen Frequency SS is 0.3mm neoprene (plus a bit in reality). There is negligible buoyancy in the suit but it is not neutral.

Rules aside, I think your plan may be problematic for other reasons (durability, breathability should it be hot by the run) and if you find an alternate, non-neoprene solution it would also eliminate any potential rules issue.

Dan Rishworth | Founder

http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.facebook.com/nineteenwetsuits
http://www.twitter.com/nineteenwetsuit

[devashish_paul]

I think the idea is you strip off the skinsuit after the rain soaked bike for the run. A tri suit with a rubberized front panel would work as long as it also stretches in the water and allows for a normal swim stroke.

One of the guys at Mooseman actually swam with a garbage bag under his tri suit with a hole cut out for head and arms and said it did not interfere with the swim stroke…wore it for the bike and pulled it out after the run. That could work too, but I would not really want something that messes up my already bad swim stroke.

We also thought about taking old tri suits and literally taking an oil based paint to seal off the pores in the front panel so it repels water during the bike…but then you stuck with that during the run, unless you use this as an oversuit over an underlying tri suit…anyway, neccessity is the mother of invention. You guys in the wetsuit and apparel world can come up with something short of Matty Reed riding his bike with a full wetsuit. We considered riding our bikes with wetsuits on to the Mooseman race start, but did not want to wreck our wetsuits on account of bending them in places where they were not designed to!

Also, while we have you here, is there any difference in fitting between the Frequency and the new Rogue. In the Frequency (~2008/2009) I was too large in the shoulders for the Small but in the next size up (I believe MS) while the shoulders fit, I was kind of floating elsewhere. Anything new in the cut or materials that change the fit dynamics? Max 5 mm everywhere is also good :-).

Dev

[styrrell]

Showers pass has a jacket and vest that might be perfect. forget the name but they are clear and look like the plastic pro style rain gear, but are lighter, somewhat stretchy, and made or a gore tex like material. A smallish size vest could be worn under the WS and you would be ready to go.

[devashish_paul]

I do this with hesitation as I told my buddies that this picture should never get on ST on account of my shitty aero position (neck injury and all), but this is the coat I had on at Mooseman…not totally flappy, but not , but far from aero. Yeah, I know pad width should be narrower, head should be lower, spacers should be less, but this is about as aero as my body can get right now!

[styrrell]

The showers pass vest would be much better, particularly if you bought it on the small size. Ideally something like a Desoto ws top would be more aero, but it would have to be about 10F before I could wear it on the bike.