Question for good IM Runners

Triathlon Forum
1

A lot of what I’ve read, and what I’ve been told by my coach, was that in training most (if not all) long runs are ideally done at a very aerobic pace to keep heart rates low and train fat burning system. For me that might be HR’s less than 140. There are obviously other tempo type runs at various phases of the build up but for most part the key run is the LSD.

I was speaking to a guy recently who (as an a/g) ran the second fastest marathon of the entire field (2:57) who said that he just goes out and runs based on however he feels that day. If he feels good he pushes it. He mentioned that this could mean doing 30km runs in 2 hours.

I know another guy who was pretty strong on the run (low 3 hour IM and sub 2:50 mary) who from memory also used to go pretty solidly on all his runs.

My question is, is doing the majority of your long runs at fat burning intensity sufficient for running fast IM runs? I’m curious to know whether (in particular) sub 3:15 types train this way or tend to pick up the pace.

Would love to hear more about people’s successes and failures with various approaches.

2

I’m sorry that I don’t fit the category of a good IM runner. But my best IM marathon was done of the back of 2 weeks high volume, low intensity training (daily 16-20K runs at 10Kmh and average 130HR. We were on a family vacation in Sardinia so I had no bike at the time on weeks -3 and -2. Also I deliberately ran during the hottest part of the day.

3

I’m not a sub-3 hr marathoner (anymore), but my opinion is that your LSD run needs to incorporate some faster running (race pace and slightly faster). For some excellent discussion of how to improve your IM run time, I’d recommend searching this forum for “Mitch Gold”

4

i suppose there is no other way than finding out yourself. whilst there are general rules and suggestions, you will have to find out what suits yourself.

look at the issue this way: a 3hr-IM-run is not fast running. it actually is a pretty pedestrian pace. however, if you have to back up a 4:40/50 ride with a 3hr-run, things change. everybody can run fast without biking beforehand. but you have to train yourself to be able to sustain a decent pace post riding.
to achieve that, you might want to try the following:

1st day: 200k ride at moderate pace followed by a quick 10k run
2nd day: 50k ride @ IMpace followed by a 30k run

this gives you some ideas what the IM-run will feel like. do the 2nd run at or close to IM-pace, but don’t push too hard.

5

I only have 3 training runs a week, 2 short and realy fast + 1 long run at a fairly high speed, sometimes slower and sometimes faster than my IM pace (I always run faster than IM speed at the end of my training runs.). Earlier I did run a bit slower on the long run, but after I increased the speed on the long run, I am better capable to keep decent speed in IM run even if I’m totally exhausted after the bike. (3.22 in AG40-45 on legs cramped and totally blown after pushing too hard on the bike.)

But, I could probably used another strategy: Use more time and energy in bike training, resulting in same bike split with more power left to the run???

Speed in training run has to be weighted according to run volume and bike volume/speed. There is a limit of how much our bodies can absorb. My 2-2.5 hour training runs faster than IM speed need to be followed by some recovery. If I lowered my running speed I could get a quality ride instead of the recovery day - but I prefer to spend that day with my family instead.

6

My one and only IM was back in 2004 and my 3:44 time was on the back of a 5:08 ride. I certainly didn’t blow on the bike as my HR stayed right within the zones, I was well hydrated and held a constant 220W essentially the entire ride. I know this because I was part of a study that had many lab guys monitoring my outputs.

Anyway that training was mostly long slow running as you specified. I was going pretty solidly until the 26km mark (on pace for 3:10-3:15 at the time) and then just felt a little tired. Whilst I never fully cramped until about 40-41km mark I did feel the need to walk aid stations.

This time I want to have a solid run on the back of a sub 5 bike so thought I’d pick the brains of those who have done it, or have in depth knowledge of those who have.

7

Agreed, almost the exact same words of old coach “3:00hrs is just under 4:20/km pace which is not quick”. I’m keen to try faster paced running as long as I know I’ve got the body burning fats really well.

Have done a 200km/10km brick previously but run was only 5:00/km pace. THe 50km/30km one sounds interesting, might see if I can squeeze something like that in this coming block.

8

This is really useful information and will take this on board. Interesting that you don’t have a heap of runs each week which is another approach to the MG strategy the other poster touched upon.

All great advice. Thanks ppl.

9

My experience is that if you do a lot of your runs at a 9 minute pace, you are probably going to run at a 9 minute pace in the race. That is what you have trained your body to do.

My IM runs were both @ 4:30. My marathon PR is 3:45. During my last race I felt like I could have run faster the entire run but I remembered being told to wait until mile 18-20 to pick it up. I only walked at the aid stations. So my running time probably was just over a 9 min pace. Now I wish I had run harder; maybe next time.

My longest run in training was 18 at an 8:30 - 8:45 pace. I ran 2 - 2 1/2 hours pretty much every week for 7-8 weeks at that pace. I ran 5-6 days a week, including 2-3 transition runs of 3-4 miles every week. Those runs were probably closer to 8:00 pace.

I also biked a lot, got off the bike at the race feeling great. I think that helped the run the most.

My long run was important but for me - since you asked what worked - running frequently and doing lots of transition runs helped. I’ve never had a problem running off the bike but I think having it ingrained mentally - I get off the bike and then I run - helps race day.

10

As is often the case training get’s lumped into silos and different training protocols get isolated as stand-alone strategies. With few exceptions, if you look at the the triathletes who are strong runners, and you look at their training from a high level over a long period of time, you will see them using a wide vareity of training protocols over a long period of time. There is no quick fix here.

One protocol that I have seen that is highely effective is increasing weekly run frequency to 6 or even 7 days/week of running. If someone does not come from a running back-ground, and they are a relativly weak runner, then I have seen this work time and time again. But again it’s not a short term solution, it’s not terrible sexy, can be somewhat tedious, and it needs to be done right.

11

As is often the case there’s no easy (or correct) answer - guess otherwise everyone would be running those times! I’m not sure I’ll go down the really high frequency path for the next one, but the one after that - if this next one doesn’t work that great - I may give it a shot.

I think for the first few weeks I’ll take it easy and throw in a few spurts here and there. Perhaps finishing off the last 5-10% at or above planned IM pace. In the latter weeks I may look to increase the proportion of time spent there, with some possibly all at depending on how I feel.

12

Im not super fast, ive done 3:07 a few times in an IM. But I think that you should go by feel…if you are sore, or tired, just jog along for the day or maybe jog along until you feel better then start rolling. If you feel good, start a little faster. You should always try to finish the run strong though…this is harder to do, I have found, when you are less fit and still building your long run up. You are right though, you should have some other tempo runs at faster paces, like 7-15 miles at closer to your half IM pace. Also both of my best IM runs came after I got my long run up to 3 hours.

13

Anyway that training was mostly long slow running as you specified. I was going pretty solidly until the 26km mark (on pace for 3:10-3:15 at the time) and then just felt a little tired. Whilst I never fully cramped until about 40-41km mark I did feel the need to walk aid stations.

why did you “feel the need to walk aid stations”? just a mental game? would HTFU solve the problem?

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I’m keen to try faster paced running as long as** I know I’ve got the body burning fats really well**.

that is a bit old school. don’t overlook that your body burns fat at ANY run, and more so even at ANY run longer than 90 mins no matter what pace you go. Also, triathletes are usally good fat burners due to long bike sessions.

after all, i think it is actually mainly two often underestimated things that helped me running faster at IM:

  • lots of bike mileage: I was always a slow rider compared to my mileage in training (4:50h). But I was relatively fresh off the bike!

  • fast bricks of 5*(800m run-5k Bike): big advantage here: you get off your bike at IM, run 4:10min/k pace and think “that’s easy!”

15

mv2005, IMO, there’s some good advice on here but other advice that I don’t agree with.

Always keep in mind that you train for one purpose, and that purpose is to race faster. Though specificity is important, there are a few different enrgy systems that you train with the goal of having them combine for faster racing.

That being said, you have to be careful when you see arguments that say “if you want to race 26.2 miles you need to run 26.2 miles” or “if you want to race fast you have to run fast.” The only way to race faster than 9 minute miles is to be in better shape. You can run 5-6 minute miles all you want, but there is no way in hell you will ever run an IM at 5-6 minute miles, so you are in a sense beating yourself up with very inefficient training.

Also keep in mind that your friend who does 6:45 pace for long runs IS taking it easy if he’s a 2:57 IM runner. In fact, he’s barely running any faster than his IM pace. A common misconception is that these fast marathoners get fast because they really push themselves in their long runs. They don’t! They push themselves about as hard as everyone else does, it’s just that they are capable of running faster and having it feel “easy.”

With regard to your training question, the number one factor that will determine your IM run performance is the number of miles you put in over the previous year or so. The best way to run a lot of miles is to do it very often and consistently and to do it at a comfortable converstaional pace.

Your pace should be based off of your ability, not the other way around. You can’t force yourself to run a 3 hour IM time by running 6:45 miles. You, instead, train at a level that is optimal for you which will make you race as fast as you are capable of…that may be 3:45, 3:30, or 2:45.

Use this link as a guide:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

90-99% of your running will want to be ~1:30 to 2:30 slower than your current 5K fitness. If time is a limiting factor or if you have several years of running under your belt, you may want to add in an occasional 20-40 minute tempo run where you get into zone 3 or 4, but I’d be careful that these don’t impact your total weekly mileage.

16

Big Zach - that’s exactly the sort of split I’d love to be doing. I had been thinking along similar lines to your training.

Uli - My first walk was at 26km and went for about 800m. AFter I got to the end of that lap I walked all the aid stations for the final 14km lap. Until I cramped up it could very well have been HTFU as I wasn’t cramping. Being the first IM though I guess I didn’t know how much it was meant to hurt.

Barry - most of my running will no doubt be at that conversational pace. THere’s a lot of great advice there. I shall check out the link.

Thanks again everyone you’ve been very helpful

Mike

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and one more advise - if you are that serious then live this cycling forum alone for a while : )))) and find some track and field/cross country club to train with runners. I can tell that - have about 10 IM runs at 2:50 and under including Kona - you can’t just go for run even 6 time a week and be fast, you have to incorporate drills, track, etc to be fast, just like swimming takes a lot of different staff and for some reason many triathletes especially IM think that they just run… I work with Viktor Zyemtsev (2:48 last IM CDA) he start sports as a runner and still have 2:07 friends he run with, has a 8:25 in 3k track, under 30 min 10k. Mark Allen has something like 2:22 marathon (I have 2:25) I’m not talking that one have to bike well, sure no Kenyan 2:06 guy will do well in IM. To your main question - I would say it’s like a Pyramid - you have work through different zones and modes, “middle path”, not too much of a speed and not too less. Many to say…
: )

18

look at the issue this way: a 3hr-IM-run is not fast running. it actually is a pretty pedestrian pace.

Are you serious?
What is a fast IM run?
Last year more than %75 of the field in Hawai was over 3hrs.

19

Agreed, almost the exact same words of old coach “3:00hrs is just under 4:20/km pace which is not quick”. I’m keen to try faster paced running as long as I know I’ve got the body burning fats really well.

Have done a 200km/10km brick previously but run was only 5:00/km pace. THe 50km/30km one sounds interesting, might see if I can squeeze something like that in this coming block.

Some of you guys are hilarious and evidently your coaches are even funnier.

“4.20km pace is not quick” in an IM nonetheless…and this is relative to what ?

I don’t pretend to be good , fast or overly knowledgeable. But come on , what percentage of participants ( or members of this forum run sub 4.20/pace marathons ) as a percentage of finishers. Let alone in an IM.

4.20 pace in an IM may not be fast for many here , but for the majority on this forum and participating it is.

This is a great post an very informative , but let’s keep it relevant OR SPECIFY IN A CLEARER format please.

Thanks

20

look at the issue this way: a 3hr-IM-run is not fast running. it actually is a pretty pedestrian pace.

Are you serious?
What is a fast IM run?
Last year more than %75 of the field in Hawai was over 3hrs.

Exactly! There were a heck of a lot of “pedestrians” in Kona, I guess.

3hr-IM, a “pedestrian pace?” give me a freakin’ break!