For those who haven’t read my previous whining, I’m a total novice swimmer. My position in the water is good – i.e., I’m level. I can’t yet manage a 2 beat kick. I get good roll. I struggle to get a high elbow recovery, and a good catch. I do better without fins or zoomers. Breathing is my limiter – I lift my head sometimes, drink a lot of water, sometimes drop my offside hand, etc. Not horribly, and not always.
I’m wondering about the value of PBs. The topic has been briefly brought up in other threads. To date, I’ve shunned the notion of using any gear, instead preferring to learn it with the tools I’ll have when it comes to event time… none. The one time I used a PB, my legs actually sank more because I couldn’t kick.
Just becasue you are using a BP doesn’t mean you can’t kick. You’re kick will be a bit weaker, but you can still do it, just flick your feet for that added boost. Either way i’d be willing to bet that your body position is the same or better with the PB than with out given the 2 beat kick. I say use it and use it a lot.
I Ain’t never seen anybody waddle into the water at a triathlon with any styrofoam twixt their thighs…
play like you practice…
I’ve also never seen a guy do the run in a tri as set of repete 400’s, but we dont question that training.- the point- Practice smart so you can play faster
Yeah, but if you predominantly race in wetsuits, a pull buoy does a good job a simulating the extra buoyancy. In most pools if you tried to do swim workouts in a wetsuit you would overheat in a few laps!
Just becasue you are using a BP doesn’t mean you can’t kick. You’re kick will be a bit weaker, but you can still do it, just flick your feet for that added boost. Either way i’d be willing to bet that your body position is the same or better with the PB than with out given the 2 beat kick. I say use it and use it a lot. **I always thought the point of a pull buoy was to work on your pull, which doesn’t work nearly as well if you are kicking. As long as using the pull buoy does not affect your roll, I think it is a good way to work on improving your pull, which is supposed to provide 85-90% of your propulsion when you are swimming. **
our swimcoach has us use a kickboard for pull sets. if we use a pull buoy we have bands around our ankles. and when our legs sink he hollers at us to tighten up our core to keep level. i find it throws me off and i really have to concentrate on keeping my chest pressed which when i get rid of the bouy feels so much easier.
Yes the main purpose of a PB is to work on the pull. But that does not exclude it being used for other reasons. I think Aztec is looking for a tool to use that will assist him with his body position, so that he can maintain good form. The problem I think he is having is that he has to work to hard, at this point, to stay high in the water and maintain good form. A PB will help with body position, kick on no kick. The point I was making with the kick was that if he felt he was not high enough even with the PB he could still kick a bit for a little extra thrust, but no so hard as to exhaust himself. The goal would be to get to the point that no kicking would be needed to maintain body position
( If we are talking of pull bouys, I gotta ask this…)
I’ve an uncomon knee injury and I’ve been swimming always with a pull bouy for a month now. The problem with my knee, didn’t allow me to kick at all cause it would hurt. As the injury has been improving, I’ve started to gradually remove the pull bouy of the warm up and drills. I’ve noticed I’ve lost a lot of power on my kick and on the first days I really struggled to maintain my body position cause I was used to the extra bouyancy on the mid body zone.
Somehow I just feel faster with the PB then without it… so my question is: is it good to swim with pull bouy? cause when we do, we get used to it and loose power on the kick!
I would not disagree with your swim coach - but based on my 30 years of competitive swimming, sounds like he is coaching swimmers - not triathletes.
I would never suggest that triathletes (unless they are very good swimmers) follow the coaches suggestions.
I have always believed for the average triathlete, the pull bouy is a GREAT tool. We all now swim with wet suits. The floatation that a wet suit provides is significant, even greater than a pull bouy. The result is that position in the water with a wet suit is far different than the position that occurs when training withough a wet suit in a pool. Thus the pull bouy helps to more accurately simulate wet suit race conditions - a good practice place to be.
The idea of small kick with the pull bouy also seems accurate to me. The reason is if you race in a wet suit there is no reason to kick at all, except for a bit of balance. Again, practice simulation to race conditions is good.
Bottom line - unless you are a very strong swimmer or pro triathlete - use a pull bouy during a good portion of your swim trainng.
I would suggest that for a strong swimmer that only competes in swimming (ether age group or masters) then reliance on a pull bouy during significant amounts of training could become harmful. Lots of reasons, but mostly with the added lift a bouy gives it makes swimming much faster. Race condition would be different, and thus the harm.
If you are a strong swimmer who is only (or predominantly doing tris) no harm in using the bouy a lot. Again, puts you in parctice conditions that are more like a race with wet suit. Also - IMO - tri swimming is about conserving energy while being as fast as you can. Swimming with a wet suit does this, legalized cheeting as I have said before. So why not practice that way.
The term strong swimmer is relative to age and background - but if I had to define - well then I would say anyone who feels at any parctice or race they could hang with the top 20% without kill’in them selves - they are strong swimmers.
Yes the main purpose of a PB is to work on the pull. But that does not exclude it being used for other reasons. I think Aztec is looking for a tool to use that will assist him with his body position, so that he can maintain good form. The problem I think he is having is that he has to work to hard, at this point, to stay high in the water and maintain good form. A PB will help with body position, kick on no kick. The point I was making with the kick was that if he felt he was not high enough even with the PB he could still kick a bit for a little extra thrust, but no so hard as to exhaust himself. The goal would be to get to the point that no kicking would be needed to maintain body position
Yes, correct; I do have to work pretty darn hard to stay high enough. Combine that with poor breathing technique (and a bit of panic when I get half air, half water) and 50m starts to push my limits.
I have lots of work to do on the catch and pull (seems like I do it differently every time, and default to a very weak low elbow). The value I see that might be there would be to lift the legs so I can focus on the front end more, and for a LOT longer with less exhaustion. But the one time I tried it, I really found my feet dropping despite a foot-flick, and I had a heck of a time getting good body roll.
One poster’s response was very counterintuitive – suggesting that a PB makes you focus more on pressing your chest stay level, which makes it easier later without the PB. Hmm.
Bottom line - unless you are a very strong swimmer or pro triathlete - use a pull bouy during a good portion of your swim trainng
I suppose you could modify this advice depending on the personal strengths of the individual…if indeed a novice, a pull buoy could be a useful tool, helping the newbie get over the difficulties of body positioning in order to work solely on the stroke…though, a newbie should be learning the basics of proper body positioning, especially very early on, in order to instill the good habits and techniques that will be relied upon for years to come.
Most of what I have read and heard…and sometimes even practiced…says that much of the early season (and this could be correlated to the novice swimmer) should focus on technique, almost at the expense of a true aerobic workout. Swimming is so very much reliant on technique that while banging out the yardage can make you feel good, if you’re doing it in such a way that is slowing you down…what have you gained?
Personally, I do use pull buoys in my swim workouts…and I am a very average swimmer at best. My recommendation to someone just starting out would be to (a) get a good coach/teacher and work on the proper technique, and (b) ditch the buoy for now. Relying on the buoy at this point will not pay off in the long run…er, swim.
I agree with Foolish tri Guy- Just one point- The non Wet Suit race. A good many of race sprints and Oly dist where many times it simply does not makes sense to wear a wet suit. Or in July Aug water temps can get to high to wear one. But either way wetsuit or no wetsuit a PB still makes sense for the avg Triathlete. Swimming is a sport that in order to swim fast you need to swim more, but in order to swim more your need to be able to swim fast. So how do we get out of that box? Use aids or tools, in this case a PB.
The trick is to know when to use and when not to. For a guy like Aztec, at this point he could possibly use a PB for 80-100% of his work out (not for sure since I have not seen him swim). He seems to know what to try to do, high hips and body, high elbows ect. it is just that he cannot do it physically right now. So he should put the PB between his legs and focus on his stroke, and building swimming strength/endurance. Slowman wrote a great article on this a while back call The high cost of good form, go here to read it. The point of the article is that it takes a certain “swimming strength” to swim with good form. But that in order to get the strength you need to swim with good form. So until that can be done with out the assistance of an aid, use the aid- PB or fins are the best bets out there.
A established swimmer can still use PB work, but not near as much as a novice maybe 10-15% of the workout. The benefit will be added pressure on the stroke, which will build strength and technique. This is especially true for the strong kickers like myself. Or it will bump up the body pos, to simulate more race pace conditions, without the need to put in race pace effort.
One point to correct there. My position in the water is excellent. I am level. I can balance with my hand straight out, no problem. In fact, my upper foot will easily break the surface, all from just pressing at the armpit. That came from lots of kicking on my side (the TI “skate” drill, with breathing).
The issue is that I have to work hard to stay there and to be high enough. I have a good sense of when those feet are dropping, so I don’t let that happen, unless form is really falling apart and I am desperate for a breath.
you got it…he’s a swim coach coaching a bunch of triathletes. but he’s gotten me much less pathetic in the swim so i do what i can and then holler back at him when he gets annoying i do notice that now i’m not loads faster with the buoy than without. before my position sucked so bad it was a huge difference.
It amazes me that people w/ admittedly bad positions can still swim at all (or were able to before). I have what no fewer than 3 elite swimmers have said is great position – yet I still hold the “Worst Swimmer on the Forum” title.
And before any of you pretenders try to de-throne me, know this… I have never done more than two 25m lengths without at least a 10 second break. And after that 25m, never less than 30secs break. So, ha! I don’t want to hear any of this “Oh, I suck the worst since my PR in the 1000m was 39 mins” stuff. I dream of such problems!
