Protocol Question On Open Water Violence Techniques

Triathlon Forum
1

I’m stumped. I’m reading Dave Scott’s books, and I can’t find a damned thing to deal with open water swimming violence.

What is appropriate and not appropriate in swimming over someone on the swim in a sprint? There’s just not enough distance in a swim sprint to spread everyone out.

Can you hammer on their back and head with a closed fist and elbow? Is that being too competitive? You know. With ear plugs in, and with all the commotion, it’s not like you can say: “Hey man, can you move?” I can’t hear much, other than brief snippets of cussing and screaming and everybody else bitching about being smashed.

After my first open water swim last weekend, after I got kicked in the face and scratched and swallowed half the lake and went into “breast stroke recovery freak out mode,” I finally figured out on the spot, it’s either take off on the lead and hold on (scratch that, can’t do that); or, now for the 99.9% of everybody else, it’s either swim on top of other humans, or other humans swimming on top of you, it’s them or me, either I’m going to get hammered on, or I do the hammering.

Is it appropriate to just close your fist and just do a windmill with it, cutting a path through the carnage, wreaking havoc?

After that experience, I’m through with swimming at the Y. I mean, the only conceivable benefit I would have training for an open water swim at the Y is if they could throw in four large, flailing, drowning mules in the lane, mule kicking the shit out of you, throw in people the size of Drew Carey clowing around doing butt busters in your lane, to get the waves up, and throw in about fifteen long, floating, sharp yard rakes. Other than that, doing interval work or swimming peaceful laps, what in the hell good does that do?

What does Dave Scott’s books say about that?

2

There are two ways to deal with this.

If you are a good swimmer, take the first 200m harddddddddddddddddddddddddd in order to get some breathing room.

If you are not so good you should probably go to the side, or wait like 5 seconds after the startoff, and then run.

I tend not to hit back, because nobody is doing this on purpose. They are just trying to swim their own race. Just try to swim your own race, because it won’t be like this the entire way (and if it does, one of you will probably have to move 2 feet to one side).

Now if someone is doing breaststroke (kicking espcially) in the middle of the pack, that’s like giving you the signal to go rambo on his ass. Grab his leg, yell, punch, do whatever the heck you want in order to get his attention (just try to hide your number so you won’t get yelled at after the race =p).

3

I have a couple of significant scars on my legs from this year’s swims. It seems people act like panicked dogs at times, raking the water in front of them with claws bared. It’s unneccesary to hurt others, even when packed tightly together. When I feel someone in front, side or behind me, I simply shorten my stroke, turn away, quit kicking until we are clear of one another. I avoid most of this by starting on the outside, finding a good rhythm, then slowly moving toward the main pack. Lucky for me, I’ve finally started to get able to get to the front of the middle of the pack, So, I’m a bit safer there than before. The middle-of-the-mess breast-stroker is the biggest menace out there, though. THAT is what seems to get people seriously hurt, the frog kick…I wish it would be outlawed, or at the very least; officially discouraged during the swim start announcements.

I know I need to become a picklehead in order to get to the back of the front pack where it is even safer…maybe I’ll do this sometime over the winter.

4

Alternately, try swimming at the Y during water aerobics classes. Lots of obstacles to dodge then, and the water aerobics ‘ladies’ as a group tend to be much nastier than the swimmers.

Closed fist is never acceptable, IMO. But over time, as you get more confident in the water it gets easier to make space for yourself, and exactly how much space you need to get through a tight opening.

And I hate those sprint the first 200 folks myself. Anything longer than a 500 standalone free and I can’t take it out too fast or I hypervenhilate and spend 10-30 minutes wheezing and coughing when I come out of the water. Not good in the pool, not good at a tri. So I end up getting stuck playing dodge 'em with the people who sprint the first 200 and then I plough over them because they’ve come to nearly a dead stop after the initial sprint. But my problem, I gotta deal.

Don’t know if these would help, but it’s something at least-

http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=7927&sidebar=14&category=swimming
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=912
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=9196

5

I guess I will start a flame here, but why in the world would you imagine that it could be OK to pound on a swimmer that is ahead of you with a closed fist on the head and back? What crime did they commit other than being ahead of you?

I hear they are still recruiting for the Tough Guy competitions on TV. Maybe you should check it out.

6

Good point.

In any case, if the guy who’s back you’re pounding decides to turn on his kick, you’ll come off way worse.

I’m glad I’m always one of the first guys out of the water and don’t have deal with all that cr*p.
(BTW - I think the original poster may have been trying to inject some humour into the forum and may not be a bare-knuckle boxing exponent)

7

Some suggestions:

  1. If you are not a fast swimmer, don’t try to start up front. Let the fish get out of the way, then you can swim your own race smoother and probably faster. Follow the wakes, don’t try to fight it.

  2. Practice with a master’s team, circle swimming in crowded lanes. You’ll learn how to navigate around other swimmers in rough water. Dip one of your shoulders, put on a burst of speed, and dart between the others. Make like a pilot fish between the sharks.

  3. If your local swim/country club has a water carnival during the summer, enter the “greased watermelon” contest. Fighting 25 or 30 other guys in the deep end over a watermelon is 10 times worse than any triathlon start I’ve ever been in.

  4. Have someone coat your back and shoulders with vaseline or baby oil before the race. It won’t help you any, but it’ll sure make others slip off of you if they try to go over you.

8

Art,
I believe the Booth’s tounge is firmly in his cheek, he is just making a joke about how he might handle what can happen during a swim and wondering how people deal with it.

As a newbie, such stories worry me. Guess I’ll count to 20 after the start, THEN start swimming. Gives me an excuse for being last out of the water, and brusies!

9

IMHO violence in the swim is never appropriate. It is dangerous. Unlike professional hockey or other sports where violence is common, triathlons- especially at our level, are a recreational sport with people of all ability levels. A newcomer to the sport may experience some (understandable)swim anxiety and accidentally or intentionally hit another participant during a swim start. Then, another, more experienced competitor thinks, “Asshole, he/she won’t get the better of me in the swim!” and grabs an ankle or clobbers them on the head. This only makes matters worse. Pretty soon the Sheriff is dragging the lake. guys, its just a race: Relax. Save your violent tendencies for your family and the workplace were society accepts them.

10

Yeah, go slap your grandma around instead.

11

I believe the Booth’s tounge is firmly in his cheek, he is just making a joke about how he might handle what can happen during a swim and wondering how people deal with it.<<

Funny, I thought it was a troll.

12

I used to be pretty fast in the pond, but have gotten slower in the last twenty years or so. Either I missed out on the violence back then or I am a mid packer and find it today. Or the sport has gotten more violent in the past five years or so, because people try and swim over or thru me all the time now.
I really object to intentional violence in sports of any kind, but man some a$$holes are pushing the envelope pretty far. Not only in the water but on the bike verbally as well. Lighten up folks this is supposed to be fun.
However I am ashamed to say I was involved in an incident where some guy is wishing he wouldn’t have attacked me, bucause he got clocked pretty good. I was a hole guard in college waterpolo and know how to hurt people If I need to. Why on earth should we learn or even think of hurting or attacking another person? I think the goal for all is to get down the course as fast as we can. If you stop for a streetfight you aren’t moving forward. If you are thinking of doing violence, be careful who you choose, because you may attack some ex SEAL or polo player who is a lot better fighter than you. G

13

Just trying to inject some humor here.

I’m Quai Chang in the water. It just appeared to me, that open water swims are pretty violent, all contact, obviously unintentional, good sport contacts. Unless you are Mark Spitz, taking off on the lead, there will be some contact.

14

Swim start worries? Go out for the local water polo club team and learn how to ‘create’ your own space in the water.

15

I feel your pain.

16

Yes things can get a bit rough out there at times. Not sure about the closed fist thing though…hard to pull through the water with your hand fisted! I do try to hit it hard out of the gate but as a former collegiate swimmer (ok Division II but those dudes are still fast!) I know I have an advantage over many. If I find someone trying to ream my backside I usually starting kicking like mad. They usually get the idea and move to the side. If you really think about it, fast swimming is all about efficiency and fluency in the water. Hard to do that if you are in Rambo mode. Stay calm and you will go faster.

I must admit I have swam over (the legs) of a few folks but only if they start breast stroking in front of me or can’t swim in a f*&%$# straight line and keep crossing in front of me. I find the later situation to be the biggest challenge. It’s like “hello…take a look every once in a while. A straight line is faster”. Ok I feel better now. BTW, I played a little water polo in college as well and the G man is right, it is way rougher than tri swimming. They don’t do a fingernail and toenail check before the game for nothing!

Mike

17

I agree, no violence. Also IMHO four mules in the swim lane during practice is never appropriate. It is dangerous.