Propane cars?

A local police department just switched their entire fleet of vehicles to propane. They are, purportedly, saving a ton of money on fuel because propane is so much less than gas. Also, allegedly, the emissions are substantially less than with gas.

I did a quick google search and it appears, like all alternative fuel vehicles, there are pros and cons. But, aside from the initial outlay, it seems there are more pros than cons. Nevertheless, prior to today, I had never even heard of propane cars, much less seen anyone/anything use them on a widespread basis.

I understand going mainstream would be an issue due to lack of refueling stations. But, why aren’t we seeing this option more for municipalities or companies? Or is this more widespread than I am aware?

EDIT TO ADD: As soon as I posted this, I remembered that I have actually seen propane buses.

Also had never heard of this. Was expecting the thread to be about some sort of new research not propane cars actually being used now.

I have seen them (or nat gas) cars here and a lot of cabs, buses, and fleet vehicles run on nat gas. It’s the refueling station that’s the problem. Rick Santelli did a whole thing on it. You can convert for something like 4K and it repays itself in a year if you have a refueling station close by. I would drive one.

I have seen them (or nat gas) cars here and a lot of cabs, buses, and fleet vehicles run on nat gas.

That’s where I would expect to see a lot of them and where it makes sense. Evidently, I am out of the loop on this.

There were allot of propane vehicles back in the 80’s and 90’s, cabs, delivery trucks. But they were hard to fill(no stations) and can really go boom when hit.

GM sells then, CNG and LPG

http://www.gmfleet.com/overview/alternative-fuel-vehicles.html

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These are not that uncommon.

I worked at a place that filled Propane tanks while going to college. We would get various propane powered vehicles. I think a lot of them may have been conversions. Still, anyplace selling propane would fill them.

Real common in poorer countries due to the cost savings.

You cannot even tell whether you’re in gas mode or propane mode on these hybrid gas/propane vehicles.

I’ve looked into that for a pick-up conversion. Since I live where propane heat is common and I have two 500 gallon tanks to supplement my heat pump it would be an easy refuel. Not all conversions are 100%-- many are duel fuel; run on gasoline when you can’t find propane.

If you live in an area not served by natural gas you’ll find dozens of places to refill propane-- the midwest is lousy with propane stations. Last year the price of propane went stupid so those with 100% propane were hosed but with a duel-fuel system they just ran gasoline.

Since my truck has 525,000 miles on it I’m not considering it right now but am researching it for the replacement truck

As a side note–
A tank mounted in the back of a pick-up got tangled up in an automatic car was and the result was ugly… early 80’s IIRR,

Yup, google is my friend

http://www.nytimes.com/1981/03/02/us/propane-gas-blast-at-a-carwash-kills-employee-15-others-hurt.html

Propane cars have been around a long time. When I was a kid, in the 70’s, my parents had a Mercury Montego wagon set up with both gas and LP. The tanks were stored under the back seat in the wagon and air shocks had to be added to accept the weight. There actually weren’t too many modifications to the engine. The big con was the difference in heat generated tended to hurt the engine in the long run.

Working for a high pressure fitting company in the 90’s we sold quite a bit to Detroit in their CNG/LP conversions. I believe city buses are some of the biggest adopters of this technology. From what I understand, the main reason for no mainstream adoption is due to the refueling stations as you mentioned.

How about time to re-fill? Filling a small barbeque tank isn’t a quick process. Seems like it would take too long with the current process.

Back when pollution controls became serious for cars in the US, Morgan sports cars http://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/mmc/carrange/plus4/plus4morgan.html#
set their cars up to run on propane and passed with no pollution controls.

They also make make commercial lawn mowers that run on propane.

A lot of the city cars are propane here, and as you noticed, a lot of the buses, not sure if they all are.

I don’t know for sure if it is actually cheaper, but I must say, when you are standing on the sidewalk you don’t get choked by the bus exhaust.

There were allot of propane vehicles back in the 80’s and 90’s, cabs, delivery trucks. But they were hard to fill(no stations) and can really go boom when hit.

Was going to post the same thing. I worked in a gas station for a couple years in the later 80’s and we would pretty regularly get someone that converted their vehicle to propane come in. Almost always vans. For some reason, and I would have to actually look at the info, but I was under the impression that propane costs went up in the 90’s and gas did not go up as much so it lost favor as well as the other issue you brought up.

I’ve also seen a number of commercial mowers going to propane and propane has long since been the favorite for fork lifts etc, although I think they are largely electric for the smaller ones now.

~Matt

Dude, have heard about these cars they have now that run diesel fuel?

Wave of the future, bro. Can’t wait to get one once they get the fuel facilities worked out.

As someone who had an LPG van (old telco utility van) as a DD/field vehicle back in the 90s I can give you some background.

First, there were lots of incentives for fleet vehicles to run propane because of air quality issues back then. But you have to remember, in the 80s and 90s a lot of vans and trucks were running virtually NO pollution control, so at best you had a catalytic converter and that was it, so propane was way cleaner. Thing is, as fuel injection systems got better, along with better calibrated ECUs, the emission gap closed up considerably.

Second, propane, much like CNG and E85 is not as efficient burning a fuel, so there is a loss in economy. Again, back when most gas engines were carbeurated or TBI, the difference was not that great - 5%ish. Witht he improvements with injection technology, that increased to around 12-15%ish - which of course affects the cost ROIs.

As to fuel cost, in Canada, in an effort to encourage alternative fuel use for these fleet cars, both the feds and most provinces dropped their embedded tax in the cost of the fuel, so propane would be half to 2/3 the cost of gas. So even with the decreased efficiency, it was still cheaper to run. When I was driving to field sites in the US, rarely did I ever get to break even with gas, it was often more expensive. Only place in the US I ever got relatively cheap propane was in GA and TX, and reality was you would be running butane there, not propane. Propane was reserved for northern markets, since butane would gel up in the winter. The big savings were if your fleet had private re-fueling, so all cop cars go to a private police ref-fueling site. But the average consumer was pretty much hosed.

As for re-fueling, propane still to this day has the best infrastructure - nearly 4000 stations across the country. Only E86 comes close. Back in my day you could get an annual publication from some propane society that listed every station across the country. The only issue I ever had was time of day restrictions. In some cases you would deal with the only place closing up shop at 6 PM. There was very little in 24/7 service outside of the northeast and midwest. This was only a hassle for me since I would try to drive from Toronto to a field site in Florida in 26 hours non-stop - got stuck in Savannah overnight as a result of no late fueling stations. But the reality was that infrastructure was not really a limiting factor to adoption. I am sure there is an app somewhere to replace the book.

Several things conspired, particularly in the US, to keep it from being widely adopted. The improvement in injection technology, ECU management, and other emission controls reduced the propane advantage in air quality as a fuel, and widened the gap in mpg loss. Given that for the most part LPG was equal or higher than gas, that was huge. Add to that the cost of a good conversion. Since propane burns at a higher temperature than gas, you needed not only specially hardened valves and valve seats, but you needed to up rate the cooling system, and ideally run a tranny cooler. Also a special intake system. There were a lot of cheap fly by night and home conversions that would only do the fuel fittings (tanks and lines) and intake, and a lot of these were pretty shoddy, which is where the rolling bomb reputation came from. A good conversion was a safe as anything.

I think the big advantages today for fleets is that they can have their own private filling stations, negotiate their own prices at a much lower cost than your consumer. Also, because propane is still a cleaner burning fuel than gas, engine life is much longer. There is virtually no oil fouling or particulate issues, so things just don’t wear out. I remember pulling a SB 350 to replace the engine in a friends c3 vette - pulled the heads - clean as the day they came out of the factory and the engine had 250K miles on it. That is another reason fleet owners like it.

Anyhow, didn’t mean to go all Hank Hill on you, but basically it was a good alternate fuel in its day, but technological advances in gas engines have pulled back most of the advantages, except under special circumstances like large fleet orders.

Actually it’s a pretty quick process. If it’s taking time filling then it is probably the person doing the work. A 500 gallon tank can be filled in a matter of 10 to 15 minutes using a propane truck. I don’t remember the filling taking much longer than a regular gas fill up. The only difficulty we had was the location of the nozzle. Now there are a lot of quick disconnects that make filling even faster.

I remember propane taxis in Australia in the mid 80’s. Still see quite a few buses in my area that run on propane. Around here (mid Michigan) propane prices fluctuate widely with the season. I helped my brother install a second tank at his house so he could buy heating fuel in August before the cold weather drove the price up. He now gets through the winter without having to refuel his heating, saves a lot of money for him.

A friend of mine had one in the late 70’s or early 80’s. If I remember correctly, he could switch back and forth between gas and propane. Another friend of mine who was a mechanic said that propane cars burned out their valves, perhaps due the extra heat.

I wonder how much savings in alternate fueled vehicles is due to avoiding highway taxes and how long it will take governments to figure that part out.

My friend drives a Honda nat gas Civic. He fills it up off his home’s natural gas supply. Can’t get more convenient than that.