What advantage does Endurance have over regular Gatorade other then a penny’s worth of sodium citrate?
How do you know sugar ants love it? 
Thanks for making this post, Paul. I just found out PFnH is the sponsor and am disappointed. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have said, especially the comment about eating while going fast on downhills. Also safety-wise, opening wrappers/tearing tabs on a gel is FAR MORE dangerous than drinking from a bottle (2 hands while balancing in aero or reaching across the handlebars with one hand I guess? Ive done it and it does not feel stable). Opening gels with one hand and teeth is dumb, because that has an extremely high likelihood of literring. So I don’t do that. It’s much less safe and much more wasteful+literry with all the packets.
As you’ve said, the obvious solution is the simplest - bottles of high carb with some sodium, literally just combine it. It does not need to be overcomplicated. Keep it simple. Many options could get the job done - PFnH carb mix, maurten 320. Just have 2 nutrition sponsors. You don’t need specialized names “hydration sponsor” and “nutrition partner”. People don’t care about the sponsor title.
On a 70.3, I’ll load my bike with 3 maurten 320s+sodium tab mixed drinks, no need for aid station unless I drop something. But on a full course, I either stop and get off my bike at halfway bag with my premixes, or slow down at aid stations often and grab a ton of gels and a bottles all the time.
Mortal was worse than gatorade endurance and isn’t practical, but even Mortal has 500mg sodium and 10g of carbs. It’s better than PFnH 500 mg of sodium and 3g carbs. People drink the PFnH cool aid and I don’t get it. I’ve done a sweat blood test and sweat rate test. I know electrolytes are important, carbs are just more important. Make it easier by making them available in drink format.
I recognize this is the nature of the sport, but these races cost 500-1000 dollars and should have appropriate “aid”. Just an obvious miss by Ironman. Not mad at PFnH, mad at Ironman.
2 Likes
I’m late to the debate, but I will pile-on that an electrolyte-only drink is dumb. Really dumb. I am similar ish that I accidentally forgot my nutrition bottles at Gulf Coast 70.3. No problem, I just drank a crapton of Precision in course instead. It wasn’t until after that I learned it was just ocean water.
I had to pull out of the run because of a leg injury, but I would likely have flamed out violently and never known why.
Some people do not consume solids and gels well in race, so we depend on liquid. Ocean water is dumb.
1 Like
The administrative burden of trucking in a pallet of sugar and distributing 25lb bags and mixing them shouldnt be that much of a headache.
If each 10 gallon cooler gets one 25lb bag of sugar and some electrolyte mix (sans sweetener) that would be ~300 4oz cups of mix with 40ish grams of carbs.
If you want to make it less, throw in a 10lb bag of sugar instead and you’ve got 15 grams per cup.
A pallet of sugar will cost about $2000 delivered to most places. That’s 2500lbs of sugar to fill about 70,000 4oz cups.
Ironman or PH, side into my dms for my consulting fee
3 Likes
The irony of starting this thread was at Mallorca 70.3 two weeks ago, I hit a speed bump with 20km to go on the bike and my “calories bar” ejected out of my bento (OK partially my fault). I got to the next aid station with blood sugar a bit low and was not thinking clearly and went for a bottle given my “muscle memory” that this would be a way to top up calories….I pedaled a few strokes and was passed the aid station and realized I just picked up electrolytes…..I then proceeded into T2 with my blood sugar kind of tanking, and in the first 10km of the run, I put away 7 gels to catch up and had three more on run loop two. it all eventually worked out with only a 1 min fade between first half and last half, but would have been nicer to get a top up of liquid calories to go with the electrolyes.
haha, see my post above…effectively had the same fate as you, but since I started this thread, I realized I was then on Ocean Water at Mallorca and needed to top up on cals once I hit the run course. I love the branding of “Ocean Water” that you’ve come up with. You better go and get that trademarked asap (although putting it out here on the forum may constitute prior art) !!!
Also makes me think of pasta water, because in my house, we say to salt the pasta water so it tastes it’s the ocean. And I imagine with the starch that leeches into the pasta water even that has more calories than the crap they serve in Ironman …
2 Likes
I punched my Nice ticket this weekend in Victoria after my Gulf Coast flop. Your qualification post last year inspired me to pick it up. I don’t understand the performance pool thing, but it worked for me. Despite an average performance, I got in. I drank a lot of Ocean Water on the run to overcome leg cramps, so maybe there is some value.
I hope to bump into to you and others here at Nice this fall.
1 Like
I am doing a mini camp Sep 5-9 in Antibes just west of Nice and then moving over to Nice for Thu-Tue around the race. One of my friends also got a slot at 70.3 Victoria. It’s a great venue, and I am glad you all had a swim this year. I am going back to Mallorca next year as I had a blast cycling there. I can’t match that on Vancouver Island, but travel to Victoria is just a 5 hrs direct flight for me. Mallorca is a bit more convoluted, but the venue is worth it.
In any case, I have to make sure I have backup carbs easily acceissble on the bike to go with the Ocean water. It’s easier in a half than a full IM
1 Like
The funny part is PF&H makes a pretty great carb & electrolyte drink mix, but I assume for logistical reasons Ironman chose the electrolyte-only option since it comes packaged in sachets and effervescent tablets, vs. bulk bags.
Between the Mortal and PH nonsense, it’s becoming increasingly clear people just want to pay for crap rather than use salt. I think I’m going to start a sports hydration product that sells pouches of magic electrolytes + flavoring with no sweetener than has simple guideless on the pouch for how much sugar to add based on activity duration.
I might have to call it Ocean Water…
2 Likes
Wait ocean water has no calories, just salt. So you may need to call the principals at Ocean Spray and license to them Ocean Spray “ultra” in which you add electrolytes and some extra maltodextrin….
1 Like
what about ocean water 140 and ocean water 70.3
1 Like
I like the PF&H set up and may be in the minority as well. Previously, I exclusively used liquid fuel, mixing it so I would get specific grams of carbs and sodium. All worked well until I had an abnormally cool race. I didn’t sweat as much as I thought so I didn’t need to drink but had to over-drink in order to get my carbs in. Ended up with sloshy stomach and had to pee like crazy on the run.
Since using the PFH ‘system’ with electrolyte drinks and their ‘Flow gel’, I can hit my carb numbers and modulate the amount of hydration that I need to consume based on the heat. I can get ~500g of carbs in a 500ml bottle which is pretty much all I need for an IM bike. I can supplement with individual gels or chews for variety if more is needed. If I need more sodium and don’t want to drink more water, I can always take one of their Electrolyte Capsules.
Just one person’s experience but it has worked well for me.
2 Likes
yep @bjgwoody the decoupling of the carbs and hydration , is actually a great thing
we have been doing the multi hour bottle and just take water from aid staions for years but have now gone to decoupling as PFH call it and its gold
i was very hesitant at first
so much more reliable and better/easier on the stomick , and far far easier to keep track of how many carbs v fluid/salt u are consuming
i think its just a bunch of old farts on here unwilling to try anything different ,
“ cause thats the way ive done it forever so nothing else can work”
2 Likes
Admittedly I am an ‘old fart’ (60) but this simplifies things for me nicely.
1 Like
…get off my lawn !!!
1 Like
Can anyone who has raced recently (this year) confirm the exact Precision Fuel and Hydration product being served on course? Is it the tablets (effervescent) or is it the powder (packets)?
Ironman Gulf Coast 70.3 and Victoria 70.3 both had PH 1000 mixed in regular 20 oz. bike bottles. It tasted effervescent. Nasty.